Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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locomoko
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Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by locomoko »

Watching this year's Open Division football championships, I am struck by how huge these teams are - huge in physical stature and huge in number of players on the rosters. What possible justification is there for allowing St. Louis to choose to compete in Division 2 in some sports (i.e. soccer and volleyball)?

ILH and HHSAA rules need fixing - if a school can compete in Open Division football, that school should not be allowed to compete in Div. 2 in any other sport. Div. 2 exists for fairness and opportunity for small schools, not to give strong athletic programs the opportunity to cherry-pick and drop-down in sports they haven't been competitive in recently.

Gridiron88
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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by Gridiron88 »

This is all because St. Louis is trying to be a football factory and monopolizing all the talent in Hawaii. Look at Farrington. St. Louis cost a great Farrington coach—Okimoto—his job. All because of their need to be a national brand.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

locomoko wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:47 pm Watching this year's Open Division football championships, I am struck by how huge these teams are - huge in physical stature and huge in number of players on the rosters. What possible justification is there for allowing St. Louis to choose to compete in Division 2 in some sports (i.e. soccer and volleyball)?

ILH and HHSAA rules need fixing - if a school can compete in Open Division football, that school should not be allowed to compete in Div. 2 in any other sport. Div. 2 exists for fairness and opportunity for small schools, not to give strong athletic programs the opportunity to cherry-pick and drop-down in sports they haven't been competitive in recently.
@locomoko:

That's an outstanding post. I think you've expressed what has bothered many of us for years. You mentioned St Louis, for example. I, for one, am not a fan of St Louis School, and I'm hoping they lose to Kahuku on Thursday. And, I agree with you completely: If St Louis competes in Open football, which is the highest division in football, force them to also compete in the highest division--D1--in soccer and volleyball. That way a school like, say, Kamehameha, could humiliate them. However, I should caution that St Louis' soccer team might be competitive even in D1. But, like you suggest, make them compete in D1. Don't let them cherry-pick.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

Gridiron88 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:55 pm This is all because St. Louis is trying to be a football factory and monopolizing all the talent in Hawaii. Look at Farrington. St. Louis cost a great Farrington coach—Okimoto—his job. All because of their need to be a national brand.
@Gridiron88:

Exactly. I'm sure most of us who aren't alumni of St Louis School aren't at all sympathetic towards that school feeling a need to be a national brand. After all, that makes all other schools on the island less by comparison. I strongly suspect lots of guys who aren't alumni of St Louis School are pulling for Kahuku High to win Thursday's game. I, for example, know two guys like that. One is a colleague who's an alumnus of Maui High; he moved here to Oahu about 15 years ago. He wants anyone except St Louis School to win the title, simply because he's tired of that school winning that Open State title--and the D1 title before that--so often. He was even pulling for Kamehameha Schools to win the ILH Open title, simply because he's tired of St Louis School winning that title--and the D1 ILH title before that--so often. The other guy is a friend of mine; he's an alumnus of Moanalua High. He doesn't like St Louis School because of their dominance of Hawaii high school football, and he's felt that way since the early-'90s (I've known him since the late-'80s). By comparison, I don't personally know anyone who's not an alumnus of St Louis School, who's pulling for them to win on Thursday.
Last edited by HS Football Fanatic on Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Gridiron88
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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by Gridiron88 »

HS Football Fanatic wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:17 pm
Gridiron88 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:55 pm This is all because St. Louis is trying to be a football factory and monopolizing all the talent in Hawaii. Look at Farrington. St. Louis cost a great Farrington coach—Okimoto—his job. All because of their need to be a national brand.
@Gridiron88:

Exactly. I'm sure most of us who aren't alumni of St Louis School aren't at all sympathetic towards that school feeling a need to be a national brand. After all, that makes all other schools on the island less by comparison. I strongly suspect lots of guys who aren't alumni of St Louis School are pulling for Kahuku High to win Thursday's game. I, for example, know two guys like that. One is a colleague who's an alumnus of Maui High; he moved here to Oahu about 15 years ago. He wants anyone except St Louis School to win the title, simply because he's tired of that school winning that Open State title so often. He was even pulling for Kamehameha Schools to win the ILH Open title, simply because he's tired of St Louis School winning that title so often. The other guy is a friend of mine; he's an alumnus of Moanalua High. He doesn't like St Louis School because of their dominance of Hawaii high school football, and he's felt that way since the early-'90s (I've known him since the late-'80s). On the other hand, I don't personally know anyone who's not an alumnus of St Louis School, who's pulling for them to win on Thursday.
Anyone who wants Saint Louis to be a football factory and win all the state championships deserves to lose their bank account, home, and job!

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@Gridiron88:

Whoa-ho! I see you dislike that school, too. Welcome to the club.

GO RED RAIDERS! If anyone on the Kahuku football team is reading this thread, you see that you have a lot of support! Guys on this thread are behind you!
Last edited by HS Football Fanatic on Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gridiron88
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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by Gridiron88 »

Just Saint Louis football. Their other sports are too irrelevant to care about.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@Gridiron88:

I see. Even basketball? That's a pretty big sport. But, St Louis is in D1 in that sport, so I guess we can't complain about classification.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by ChadFukuoka »

locomoko wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:47 pm Watching this year's Open Division football championships, I am struck by how huge these teams are - huge in physical stature and huge in number of players on the rosters. What possible justification is there for allowing St. Louis to choose to compete in Division 2 in some sports (i.e. soccer and volleyball)?

ILH and HHSAA rules need fixing - if a school can compete in Open Division football, that school should not be allowed to compete in Div. 2 in any other sport. Div. 2 exists for fairness and opportunity for small schools, not to give strong athletic programs the opportunity to cherry-pick and drop-down in sports they haven't been competitive in recently.
There’s something called the “Dayton Rule” in college sports that forces an athletic program to put all sports in the same division. Dayton used to have a D3 football program, but were D1 in basketball (and often a solid mid major). The other D3 football programs didn’t like Dayton competing at a lower level, and having more financial resources from their basketball success.

Maybe a similar rule should be made for high school sports here.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@ChadFukuoka:

Agree. That way schools like St Louis School that hogcheese football titles are at least more likely to get beaten in other sports. That's better than nothing.

locomoko
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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by locomoko »

Here we go ... St. Louis is No.1 in the state in D1 basketball, and they just beat Iolani handily.
Based on newspaper articles, St.L will likely be top-ranked in baseball as well.
They don't belong in D2 in any sports - they're not a D2 athletic program in any way.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@locomoko:

Well, the basketball game was a little bit closer than might appear: St Louis was able to pull-away only in the last two minutes of the game. Also, well, personally I can't complain about the outcome, as I'd rather have St Louis School than Iolani School. Just the same, I agree that St Louis shouldn't be D2 in any sport.

Meanwhile, speaking of classification-related news: The Star-Advertiser reported in today's paper that Mid-Pac beat Punahou in vars girls' soccer. Mid-Pac fans shouldn't get too excited: That was the Punahou 2 team.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by bow89 »

Pretty sure Saint Louis is 0-4 this year in D2. Just lost at home 4-0 to Pac 5, yet people still calling for them to move up to D1.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@bow89:

I think guys resent that if St Louis makes D2 States, they'll be playing against weaker schools than those in D1, and would therefore have an easier time of possibly winning the D2 State title. I.e., it's a way of St Louis winning a State title "on the cheap".

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by bow89 »

HS Football Fanatic wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:16 pm @bow89:

I think guys resent that if St Louis makes D2 States, they'll be playing against weaker schools than those in D1, and would therefore have an easier time of possibly winning the D2 State title. I.e., it's a way of St Louis winning a State title "on the cheap".
Think the intent is to have success at the D2 level to increase the profile at the school so more students turn out for the sport. Then, if they are successful, they can move up to D1 like MPI did several years ago and Maryknoll did in baseball. Hard to get kids to be interested in soccer if your team has no chance to be competitive. Gone are the days when a bunch of athletic football players can just show up and win in soccer. The kids today mostly concentrate on one sport and train year round.

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