Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@XLT1000:

I'd stated my position on this message-board here before, but if I were God, I'd eliminate the divisions altogether. When I was in high school in the mid-'70s, there were no divisions. If a school wanted to field a team, that school had to take-on all comers in their league. I think we should go back to that, and this is why: If your school is relegated to D2 or D3, it cheapens your school from the get-go. It makes your school a "second-class or third-class citizen". It's humiliating for the students and alumni of that school. Yes, I get it that when it comes to physically violent sports like football, a weak school can get lit-up and humiliated, and suffer a lot of injuries. Well, that's how it was in the mid-'70s, too. Yet, on occasion there were years when those weaker schools made a decent showing. If a school doesn't want to be embarrassed by being on the losing end of a lopsided score, and if it doesn't want to sustain a lot of injuries, let that school forfeit, and that includes DURING the game. If a school like McKinley or Waialua thinks it doesn't make sense to play Kahuku in football, then forfeit the game. That's what's happening in other sports right now, anyway. Just today, Kalaheo's softball team forfeited to Kaimuki. Yesterday, Kailua's girls' water polo team forfeited to Mililani.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by BowTow »

Iolani don't care about classification. Their t-shirt just say Football State Champion.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by gopunahou »

BowTow wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:30 pm Iolani don't care about classification. Their t-shirt just say Football State Champion.
That does not surprise me in the least
Punahou Football: 12-1, 2008 ILH and State Champions! 11-0, 2013 ILH and State Champions, a team for the ages!

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

BowTow wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:30 pm Iolani don't care about classification. Their t-shirt just say Football State Champion.
@BowTow:

And, that's precisely my point. If there were no divisions, Iolani wouldn't have that shirt, because they wouldn't be "Football State Champion". Then they'd be forced to care. I say, bring high school sports back to the mid-'70s: An earlier, golden age. In football: No Open, no D1, no D2. Each school mixes it up with all the others. No school can hide behind a lower classification and milk it to a State title. Of course, there was no State football championship in the mid-'70s. Instead there was the Prep Bowl, which pitted the ILH champ against the OIA champ. That was basically a default State championship anyway, and guys knew it.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by locomoko »

Well here we go, with an update on how the dysfunctional division system has played out.

St. Louis has won the ILH Triple Crown: champs in football, basketball, and baseball - well stocked with athletes. And their volleyball team won the ILH Division 2 crown, which means entering the state tournament as the #1 seed and host to Pahoa in the opening round. Left out of the state tournament are Div. 2 opponents Damien and University Lab who had respectable seasons but each lost to St. Louis twice.

Also, left out of the Div. 1 state tournament are Iolani, HBA, and Maryknoll, who would have been in contention for an ILH third state berth if St. Louis stepped up to Div. 1 where they belong. Check out St. Louis' lineup if they play on TV in states - they have some big boys playing this year.

All justifications for St. Louis being Div. 2 in any sports are out the door. Alumni of all ILH schools big and small must be pissed, because the biggest fish choosing to selectively feed in certain small ponds sucks for everyone else.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@locomoko:

Yes; I read you loud and clear. I can feel your resentment of St Louis School, and I think that that resentment is totally justified. I don't exactly love that school either, but there's a school I dislike more: Iolani School. Definitely, though, Iolani has more guts than Saint Louis, in that they're D1 in all sports, as far as I know. And of course, if they had beaten St Louis for the ILH baseball title, St Louis wouldn't have won the Triple Crown. But, having said that, I'm actually glad St Louis won the baseball title. See, I'd rather see St Louis win football and basketball and baseball, than see Iolani win even one of them. Now, if St Louis were in D1 for volleyball, Iolani would probably have gotten the third ILH berth into States. (I think Iolani would have finished ahead of St Louis.) See, I don't want Iolani getting anywhere near another State title. As it stands, they're already in the running for the baseball and softball State titles. So again, I hear you loud and clear about how it sucks that St Louis is hiding behind D2 in some sports. But, speaking just for myself, if it helps keep Iolani out of State tourneys, well, that there might be a silver lining. I also appreciate your using the term, "pissed", because I use it a lot myself. Perhaps I should use it again: I get more pissed when Iolani wins, than when St Louis wins.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by locomoko »

@ HS Football Fanatic

I respect your clearly-explained pecking order when it comes to the various ILH schools. Yes, I favor the smaller ILH schools over the Open Division football schools, and I especially appreciate when the smaller schools compete above their weight class. Division rules need to be revised to prevent stronger schools from sandbagging in cherry-picked sports.

Using "alumni must be pissed" was definitely a hat-tip to you. Keep posting!

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@locomoko:

Thanks. But actually, I like or dislike schools not by whether they're smaller or larger. I mean, yes, I admit that Iolani School is punching above its weight. It's not as large a school as, say, Punahou School. But, I still dislike Iolani School simply because, "they win too much". That's a famous phrase--(well, it's famous to me, at least)--I've been borrowing for years, uttered by a former colleague who's an '88 Mililani alumnus. He said he "hates Punahou because they win too much". The words in quotes are verbatim as spoken by him. (Well, he said, "I hate..." I had to add the "s" to make it grammatically correct in my sentence.) Now, I may dislike Iolani School, but I refuse to hate them. High schools are about kids, and I refuse to hate kids. (Well, Iolani School is actually K-12, but this message-board is about high school sports.) Another reason I dislike Iolani School is that I sense an "academic elitism" about them.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by ChadFukuoka »

HS Football Fanatic wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:12 pm @locomoko:

Thanks. But actually, I like or dislike schools not by whether they're smaller or larger. I mean, yes, I admit that Iolani School is punching above its weight. It's not as large a school as, say, Punahou School. But, I still dislike Iolani School simply because, "they win too much". That's a famous phrase--(well, it's famous to me, at least)--I've been borrowing for years, uttered by a former colleague who's an '88 Mililani alumnus. He said he "hates Punahou because they win too much". The words in quotes are verbatim as spoken by him. (Well, he said, "I hate..." I had to add the "s" to make it grammatically correct in my sentence.) Now, I may dislike Iolani School, but I refuse to hate them. High schools are about kids, and I refuse to hate kids. (Well, Iolani School is actually K-12, but this message-board is about high school sports.) Another reason I dislike Iolani School is that I sense an "academic elitism" about them.
It's totally up to you, but I really hope if you ever decide to retire from this forum, you'll reveal which school you are an alumnus of. By all means, I enjoy your contributions here, but one can wish :) I'm sure some of the longer tenured posters here would be interested too.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by BowTow »

Saint Louis is a really small school. 619 students grade 5 to 12.
Iolani 2100 students K to 12
Kamehameha 3192 students K to 11
Punahou 3750 students K to 12
Surprised Punahou had a bigger student count than Kamehameha.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

ChadFukuoka wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:24 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:12 pm @locomoko:

Thanks. But actually, I like or dislike schools not by whether they're smaller or larger. I mean, yes, I admit that Iolani School is punching above its weight. It's not as large a school as, say, Punahou School. But, I still dislike Iolani School simply because, "they win too much". That's a famous phrase--(well, it's famous to me, at least)--I've been borrowing for years, uttered by a former colleague who's an '88 Mililani alumnus. He said he "hates Punahou because they win too much". The words in quotes are verbatim as spoken by him. (Well, he said, "I hate..." I had to add the "s" to make it grammatically correct in my sentence.) Now, I may dislike Iolani School, but I refuse to hate them. High schools are about kids, and I refuse to hate kids. (Well, Iolani School is actually K-12, but this message-board is about high school sports.) Another reason I dislike Iolani School is that I sense an "academic elitism" about them.
It's totally up to you, but I really hope if you ever decide to retire from this forum, you'll reveal which school you are an alumnus of. By all means, I enjoy your contributions here, but one can wish :) I'm sure some of the longer tenured posters here would be interested too.
@ChadFukuoka:

Unfortunately, it's unlikely that I will. And, one of those "longer-tenured" posters had called me a wimp and a hypocrite several years ago for not doing so, and he's probably right. So, I need to own that. I will say that my alma mater sucks, but that's actually not the most important reason I wish not to reveal the school. The biggest reason, I think, is that it would damage my objectivity; my ability to freely post about any and every school. What's more, it might very well reveal my identity, which would put a damper on my willingness to be totally candid when I post. Having said that, I congratulate you for revealing your alma mater. Unlike me, you are not a wimp or a hypocrite.

And, speaking of retiring from this forum, perhaps I should do so sooner rather than later. I'm in my 60s, and often feel somewhat juvenile for posting on high school threads.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

BowTow wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:50 am Saint Louis is a really small school. 619 students grade 5 to 12.
Iolani 2100 students K to 12
Kamehameha 3192 students K to 11
Punahou 3750 students K to 12
Surprised Punahou had a bigger student count than Kamehameha.
@BowTow:

OK, but 2 things to keep in mind:

1.) I would consider high school enrollment only, as this is a thread about high school sports. 2.) I would multiply St Louis' high school enrollment by 2, as it's an all-boys school.

As for Kamehameha (K-12, of course, not K-11), perhaps they have fewer students than Punahou because they insist on fewer students per classroom? (The lower the class size, the more attention the teacher can give each student.) I doubt that their campus is smaller than Punahou's; Kamehameha's campus is huge. They even have dorms (but, so does Mid-Pac, if I'm not mistaken).
I doubt that the count is lower because Kamehameha has the Hawaiians-only race limitation; there are lots of part-Hawaiian kids who want to attend Kamehameha, but there's not enough room at the school for all of them. (Plus, because Kamehameha is so rich, they can afford to charge lower tuition than Punahou does.)

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by locomoko »

BowTow wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:50 am Saint Louis is a really small school. 619 students grade 5 to 12.
Iolani 2100 students K to 12
Kamehameha 3192 students K to 11
Punahou 3750 students K to 12
Surprised Punahou had a bigger student count than Kamehameha.
Hawaii Association of Independent Schools published an enrollment report for 2020-2021 school year. Here are some grade 9-12 totals:
  • Kamehameha: 900 boys (1800 co-ed div by 2)
  • Punahou: 874 boys (1748 co-ed div by 2)
  • Iolani: 537 boys (1073 co-ed div by 2)
  • St. Louis: 484 boys
  • Mid Pacific: 401 boys (801 co-ed div by 2)
  • Damien: 484 co-ed (but more boys than girls)
  • Maryknoll: 242 boys (483 co-ed div. by 2)
  • Hawaii Baptist: 234 boys (467 co-ed div. by 2)

St. Louis won ILH Div. 2 volleyball, is top-seeded in the state tournament, and defeated Pahoa last night 3-0. MPI, Maryknoll, and HBA all have fewer boys in 9-12, but compete in Div. 1 and their seasons are over because they don't sandbag.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by HS Football Fanatic »

@locomoko:

So, there's a possibility that St Louis will take State titles in both D1 baseball (they beat Pearl City yesterday, and therefore advance) and D2 volleyball. If they take the D2 volleyball title, there should be an asterisk next to it, saying, "Sandbag Special". Guys who aren't St Louis alumni might very well resent that school.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by bow89 »

locomoko wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 1:14 am
BowTow wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:50 am Saint Louis is a really small school. 619 students grade 5 to 12.
Iolani 2100 students K to 12
Kamehameha 3192 students K to 11
Punahou 3750 students K to 12
Surprised Punahou had a bigger student count than Kamehameha.
Hawaii Association of Independent Schools published an enrollment report for 2020-2021 school year. Here are some grade 9-12 totals:
  • Kamehameha: 900 boys (1800 co-ed div by 2)
  • Punahou: 874 boys (1748 co-ed div by 2)
  • Iolani: 537 boys (1073 co-ed div by 2)
  • St. Louis: 484 boys
  • Mid Pacific: 401 boys (801 co-ed div by 2)
  • Damien: 484 co-ed (but more boys than girls)
  • Maryknoll: 242 boys (483 co-ed div. by 2)
  • Hawaii Baptist: 234 boys (467 co-ed div. by 2)

St. Louis won ILH Div. 2 volleyball, is top-seeded in the state tournament, and defeated Pahoa last night 3-0. MPI, Maryknoll, and HBA all have fewer boys in 9-12, but compete in Div. 1 and their seasons are over because they don't sandbag.
I'm pretty sure each of those schools won state titles in D2 before moving up to D1. MPI soccer, Maryknoll baseball, HBA volleyball.

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