Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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@bow89:

Good point that you made. Pac-Five beat St Louis 4-0, yet--as far as I know--St Louis doesn't have to worry about them because I think Pac-Five isn't allowed at States. I think the excuse HHSAA uses is that Pac-Five isn't a school, but a combination of different schools. That's supposed to be a good-enough reason to exclude them from States. If you ask me, that's lame. If Pac-Five is allowed to compete at the league level, they should be allowed to compete at the State level.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:20 am @bow89:

Good point that you made. Pac-Five beat St Louis 4-0, yet--as far as I know--St Louis doesn't have to worry about them because I think Pac-Five isn't allowed at States. I think the excuse HHSAA uses is that Pac-Five isn't a school, but a combination of different schools. That's supposed to be a good-enough reason to exclude them from States. If you ask me, that's lame. If Pac-Five is allowed to compete at the league level, they should be allowed to compete at the State level.
I didn’t know that. The reason they aren’t allowed in states in football is because they are the only team in the ILH D2. It wouldn’t be fair if they automatically make it in every year by default. But since the ILH has more than one team in D2 in pretty much every other sport besides football, that reason wouldn’t apply to PAC-5 here.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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@ChadFukuoka:

Again, I think that's what HHSAA says. I swear I read it in the past somewhere. I don't know how HHSAA can justify it. It's not like Pac-Five necessarily has some kind of significant advantage just because it draws from a number of schools; those are small schools. If having a number of schools were some kind of unfair advantage, Pac-Five would take every ILH title in every sport it competes in, in D2. Obviously, that hasn't been happening.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:58 pm @ChadFukuoka:

Again, I think that's what HHSAA says. I swear I read it in the past somewhere. I don't know how HHSAA can justify it. It's not like Pac-Five necessarily has some kind of significant advantage just because it draws from a number of schools; those are small schools. If having a number of schools were some kind of unfair advantage, Pac-Five would take every ILH title in every sport it competes in, in D2. Obviously, that hasn't been happening.
I’d think it makes things logistically harder for PAC-5. You need to get kids from a bunch of schools all over the island to meet at the same place, at the same time. A lot of effort into coordinating schedules, bus rides, parent volunteers, etc. PAC-5 probably isn’t poaching kids from other schools, like the bigger private schools are. If you’re super talented at a young age, you’d transfer to a bigger program anyway.

On a personal/social level, I’d also imagine there may be slightly less of a bond between teammates, if you don’t see each other in class or around the school, since you attend different ones. I’m just guessing on this part, maybe the bond is actually stronger because of the difficulties that need to be overcome.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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@ChadFukuoka:

Oh, absolutely, the logistics for Pac-Five are a nightmare. Take the football team, for example. I think the first year for them was '75. (Before that, they were called the Hummers.) Practice was held at Mid-Pac Institute. So, players from four other schools had to go to a different school (Mid-Pac) for practice. What a hassle. As for Pac-Five raiding other teams, well, I don't think they had to, back in the late-'70s to late-'80s. That's because they kicked butt back then, so I'm not sure how hard Pac-Five had to recruit; I'd imagine good players might have enrolled in the five member schools just to join Pac-Five's winning team. I don't think it's about a "bigger program"; it's about a winning program. As long as Pac-Five kicked butt, I doubt that its players necessarily had any desire to join a "bigger program". What for? You're already in a winning program; who cares how "big" that program is?

Frankly, I think Pac-Five as a concept sucks in the sense that it's a conglomeration of separate schools, so it's hard to build a sense of loyalty. I mean, suppose you attend Mid-Pac Institute, but you're on the Pac-Five football team. Pac-Five isn't a school, so how do you feel loyal to it? You're loyal to your school, Mid-Pac. I think there's something messed-up about that. Therefore, Pac-Five, I think, is strictly utilitarian: It exists simply to give students from small private schools a chance to play a sport that isn't offered by their own school. That's it, I feel. Sure, Pac-Five even has its own colors: Brown and orange. (In the late-'70s to late-'80s, it was orange and white.) But, I think there's something artificial about Pac-Five because it's not a school; it's only a conglomeration of players from different schools. I mean, Pac-Five even has its own cheerleaders, wearing Pac-Five unis and colors. But, like the football players, those girls also come from different schools. See what I mean? How does any Pac-Five player or cheerleader develop any kind of feeling for Pac-Five, when each player and cheerleader already owes loyalty to his or her own individual school? To my mind, there's something strained, contrived, and artificial about Pac-Five. Having said that, I'm not saying that Pac-Five should disband or end; after all, it's been around for some 46 years already. It's just that its members/players have to "manufacture" in their minds, a loyalty that would come naturally for individual schools that have their own sports teams.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:04 pm @ChadFukuoka:

Oh, absolutely, the logistics for Pac-Five are a nightmare. Take the football team, for example. I think the first year for them was '75. (Before that, they were called the Hummers.) Practice was held at Mid-Pac Institute. So, players from four other schools had to go to a different school (Mid-Pac) for practice. What a hassle. As for Pac-Five raiding other teams, well, I don't think they had to, back in the late-'70s to late-'80s. That's because they kicked butt back then, so I'm not sure how hard Pac-Five had to recruit; I'd imagine good players might have enrolled in the five member schools just to join Pac-Five's winning team. I don't think it's about a "bigger program"; it's about a winning program. As long as Pac-Five kicked butt, I doubt that its players necessarily had any desire to join a "bigger program". What for? You're already in a winning program; who cares how "big" that program is?

Frankly, I think Pac-Five as a concept sucks in the sense that it's a conglomeration of separate schools, so it's hard to build a sense of loyalty. I mean, suppose you attend Mid-Pac Institute, but you're on the Pac-Five football team. Pac-Five isn't a school, so how do you feel loyal to it? You're loyal to your school, Mid-Pac. I think there's something messed-up about that. Therefore, Pac-Five, I think, is strictly utilitarian: It exists simply to give students from small private schools a chance to play a sport that isn't offered by their own school. That's it, I feel. Sure, Pac-Five even has its own colors: Brown and orange. (In the late-'70s to late-'80s, it was orange and white.) But, I think there's something artificial about Pac-Five because it's not a school; it's only a conglomeration of players from different schools. I mean, Pac-Five even has its own cheerleaders, wearing Pac-Five unis and colors. But, like the football players, those girls also come from different schools. See what I mean? How does any Pac-Five player or cheerleader develop any kind of feeling for Pac-Five, when each player and cheerleader already owes loyalty to his or her own individual school? To my mind, there's something strained, contrived, and artificial about Pac-Five. Having said that, I'm not saying that Pac-Five should disband or end; after all, it's been around for some 46 years already. It's just that its members/players have to "manufacture" in their minds, a loyalty that would come naturally for individual schools that have their own sports teams.
PAC-5 was good a while ago, but I meant currently they wouldn’t have an advantage over the ILH Open schools, just because they are a group of schools. Their collective size now is still smaller than the rosters of Kam, Punahou, and St Louis.

I wonder if things like practice time is limited in any way. Since players come from all over the island, you need to wait for everyone to arrive, and the commute times are different, depending on which school you attend. Do practices start later and end later? What about off season, and summer conditioning?

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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@ChadFukuoka:

As I had mentioned in my previous post, playing for--and even coaching for--Pac-Five is a logistical nightmare. Again, taking the football team for example, yes: As a coach, when there's practice, you have to wait for all the players to arrive from their various schools. I mean, it all has to try your patience sometimes, I'm sure. And it's all for an entity--Pac-Five--that's not even a school. After you graduate from high school, if you played for Pac-Five, how much feeling can you have for that? As opposed to someone who played for, say, Moanalua. By default, that guy played for everyone who attends Moanalua, and for the alumni of Moanalua. If you played for Pac-Five, who did you play for? I guess, everyone who plays for Pac-Five, and for people who played for Pac-Five in the past. That's something, but it doesn't seem as compelling as playing for your particular school, and its students and alumni. It's so many things. If we go back to the example of the guy from Mid-Pac who played for Pac-Five: When he graduates, what will his diploma read? Mid-Pacific Institute, not Pac-Five. Whereas, when the guy who played for Moanalua graduates, his diploma will read, Moanalua High School. It seems so much more specific, so much more real, so much more up-close, so much more meaningful. I have to believe that playing for your own school is so much more meaningful than playing for some conglomerate entity involving a whole bunch of schools, of which of course only one is yours. And, today there are far more than just five schools that contribute players to Pac-Five. A whole bunch of small private schools have sprung-up since '75, and have joined Pac-Five. Only one has closed: Lutheran High, back in 2014, I think. Lutheran joined Pac-Five quite early, as they were already around when Pac-Five began. It must suck when your alma mater closes. Wouldn't you feel adrift? I mean, the school you graduated from, is gone. That has to suck.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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bow89 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:28 pm Pretty sure Saint Louis is 0-4 this year in D2. Just lost at home 4-0 to Pac 5, yet people still calling for them to move up to D1.
@bow89:

I learned just today that the OIA does indeed have D2 soccer. The only OIA Open school that's in D2 for soccer is Farrington. Therefore, both St Louis and Farrington should be in D1 soccer. Wanted to correct my error.

Personally, I think Farrington shouldn't be in Open. Yes, I know they have thick O-linemen every year, so it's not that their team is physically small. But, if I'm not mistaken, they lost all their games this past season. So, I'd suggest that Farrington go down to D1 for next season. If Farrington High agrees to that, then I would defend Farrington's soccer team remaining in D2.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by locomoko »

St. Louis has now won D1 State Basketball, Open State Football, and has a legit shot at a triple crown with D1 State Baseball. Yet the school plays D2 in certain sports.
The real injustice here is that schools like Mid-Pacific (soccer/volleyball) and Hawaii Baptist (volleyball) man-up and play D1 in those same sports, but they have a reduced chance of playing in a state tournament due to St. Louis playing D2 and the ILH getting fewer D1 berths.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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locomoko wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:26 am St. Louis has now won D1 State Basketball, Open State Football, and has a legit shot at a triple crown with D1 State Baseball. Yet the school plays D2 in certain sports.
The real injustice here is that schools like Mid-Pacific (soccer/volleyball) and Hawaii Baptist (volleyball) man-up and play D1 in those same sports, but they have a reduced chance of playing in a state tournament due to St. Louis playing D2 and the ILH getting fewer D1 berths.
St Louis lost to Kahuku in the Open State football final this year.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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locomoko wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:26 am St. Louis has now won D1 State Basketball, Open State Football, and has a legit shot at a triple crown with D1 State Baseball. Yet the school plays D2 in certain sports.
The real injustice here is that schools like Mid-Pacific (soccer/volleyball) and Hawaii Baptist (volleyball) man-up and play D1 in those same sports, but they have a reduced chance of playing in a state tournament due to St. Louis playing D2 and the ILH getting fewer D1 berths.
@locomoko:

That's right. And, at this moment, Mililani alumni especially, should be pissed about it. Soccer is one of the sports that St Louis is in D2 for. Yet, Mililani is in D1. OK; St Louis kicked Mililani's butts in basketball, but let me tell you, Mililani would kick St Louis' butts in soccer. Not only is Mililani in the stronger division; they're one of the strongest schools in that division. Yet, Mililani would never get the opportunity for revenge, because St Louis is hiding-out in D2. St Louis is having it both ways, while Mililani is having to tough it out in D1 for every sport. What's up with that?

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:54 pm
locomoko wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:26 am St. Louis has now won D1 State Basketball, Open State Football, and has a legit shot at a triple crown with D1 State Baseball. Yet the school plays D2 in certain sports.
The real injustice here is that schools like Mid-Pacific (soccer/volleyball) and Hawaii Baptist (volleyball) man-up and play D1 in those same sports, but they have a reduced chance of playing in a state tournament due to St. Louis playing D2 and the ILH getting fewer D1 berths.
@locomoko:

That's right. And, at this moment, Mililani alumni especially, should be pissed about it. Soccer is one of the sports that St Louis is in D2 for. Yet, Mililani is in D1. OK; St Louis kicked Mililani's butts in basketball, but let me tell you, Mililani would kick St Louis' butts in soccer. Not only is Mililani in the stronger division; they're one of the strongest schools in that division. Yet, Mililani would never get the opportunity for revenge, because St Louis is hiding-out in D2. St Louis is having it both ways, while Mililani is having to tough it out in D1 for every sport. What's up with that?
St Louis didn't even make the D2 state playoff field. Whether they are sandbagging in soccer or not, they aren't very good this year.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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@ChadFukuoka:

Well, that's true. Even if St Louis were in D1, Mililani would have no opportunity for revenge because St Louis wouldn't even make States. But that's probably cold comfort for Mililani alumni who might still be pissed about basketball.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

Post by bow89 »

HS Football Fanatic wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:54 pm
locomoko wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:26 am St. Louis has now won D1 State Basketball, Open State Football, and has a legit shot at a triple crown with D1 State Baseball. Yet the school plays D2 in certain sports.
The real injustice here is that schools like Mid-Pacific (soccer/volleyball) and Hawaii Baptist (volleyball) man-up and play D1 in those same sports, but they have a reduced chance of playing in a state tournament due to St. Louis playing D2 and the ILH getting fewer D1 berths.
@locomoko:

That's right. And, at this moment, Mililani alumni especially, should be pissed about it. Soccer is one of the sports that St Louis is in D2 for. Yet, Mililani is in D1. OK; St Louis kicked Mililani's butts in basketball, but let me tell you, Mililani would kick St Louis' butts in soccer. Not only is Mililani in the stronger division; they're one of the strongest schools in that division. Yet, Mililani would never get the opportunity for revenge, because St Louis is hiding-out in D2. St Louis is having it both ways, while Mililani is having to tough it out in D1 for every sport. What's up with that?
This makes absolutely no sense. I'm pretty sure St. Louis fans weren't hoping to play Kahuku in basketball so they could get some revenge for getting smoked in football. When Iolani beat Saint Louis in previous year's in basketball they weren't all pissed that they couldn't Iolani a beatdown in football because they were in a different division. Schools should play in divisions that allow their athletes to field competitive teams period.

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Re: Hawaii's Dysfunctional Divisions

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@bow89:

Why does it make "absolutely no sense"? You don't think at least the alumni might feel that way? You honestly think St Louis alumni didn't have Kahuku's beatdown of St Louis in football on their minds at all, when St Louis played Kahuku in basketball? It's not even limited to the alumni; St Louis' basketball team had football players on it, including the starting QB. You think he didn't have in mind at all, how Kahuku had kicked St Louis' butts in football? And how competitive was the basketball game? You think Mililani alumni absolutely don't give a rip at all that Mililani can't get their hands on St Louis in soccer, after what happened in the State basketball title game? How competitive with St Louis was Mililani in that game? And the two schools were obviously in the same division, on top of that. I remember when there was no D2 in high school sports at all. How many times must a school be allowed to say, "Oh, but we're in D2"?

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