A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

Post by RedZone »

My3Cats wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:04 am As a comparison regarding 1st year head coaches at a new school and their 1st and 2nd year won-loss records with a COVID year as his first season, take a look at Baylor with Dave Aranda:

2020 2-7
2021 8-2 so far, and with an upset special over previously undefeated Oklahoma.

And Aranda was never a head coach before.
This is the coach that I wanted Chow to keep.
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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

Post by SundayJam »

Egonator wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:48 pm
Ok so one coach in the last 7 has posted a winning record in their second season. Thats not great and that doesn't really answer my question of why the last six coaches have posted losing records in their second season.
Von Appen and Chow were bad every year they were head coaches. McMackin beat Washington State and Navy his second year. We lost another game by one point...however Wisconsin and Boise State absolutely destroyed us. 6-7 is a losing season but we did not play poorly that year. Likewise, the team this year has showed promise but has been dealt an awful strength of schedule season. I forget what happened with June Jones but he occasionally had some awful seasons.

Does that answer your original post? Finding convenient statistics is fun, but it doesn't match reality. Sometimes a coincidence is just that. The curse of the Bambino...nonsense. Tomey, Jones, McMackin...good for Hawaii. Oh...and that other guy you neglected to recognize in your original post...also good.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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SundayJam wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:03 pm
Egonator wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:48 pm
Ok so one coach in the last 7 has posted a winning record in their second season. Thats not great and that doesn't really answer my question of why the last six coaches have posted losing records in their second season.
Von Appen and Chow were bad every year they were head coaches. McMackin beat Washington State and Navy his second year. We lost another game by one point...however Wisconsin and Boise State absolutely destroyed us. 6-7 is a losing season but we did not play poorly that year. Likewise, the team this year has showed promise but has been dealt an awful strength of schedule season. I forget what happened with June Jones but he occasionally had some awful seasons.

Does that answer your original post? Finding convenient statistics is fun, but it doesn't match reality. Sometimes a coincidence is just that. The curse of the Bambino...nonsense. Tomey, Jones, McMackin...good for Hawaii. Oh...and that other guy you neglected to recognize in your original post...also good.
I think you may have answered my question. It’s just coincidence. I just found it strange that six coaches in a row posted losing records in their second season. I thought i was missing something but I believe you have a point.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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Sophomore slumps are real!!
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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

Post by Palolo_2LA »

couz808 wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:14 pm Sophomore slumps are real!!
But the difference is the team regressed and there's no talent development.
Be humble and confident in yourself and all things you do. :zook:

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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I won't take anything from McMackin, but if he never made those PC comments, I think UH football would have had a great program. Correct me if I'm wrong, but McMackin was Jones 2.0. He kept everything pretty much intact.

To talk about the sad years, both Von Appen and Chow had to start over. There were systems and players in place that don't fit their plans. By the time they figure out which side is up, fans started to chant for their jobs.

We can say the same with TG. Either we stick it out with TG (and Bo.) Or UH will never have a strong program if coaches keep coming in and out.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

Post by Duster »

wyokie wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:46 am
cabanalane wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:39 am Let's go one more back.

What was Bob Wagner's record in year 2?
He went 9-3 in his second year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hawa ... tball_team
Wags was a DC who brought in an OC in Paul Johnson who really knew his stuff. Paul also adjusted the Georgia Southern "Ham Bone" spread option running attack to the talent - with more pass options with Warren Jones and Garrett Gabriel until he got his pure spread option QB in Michael Carter to lead us to a Holiday Bowl win. Who can forget his 3 WR stack formation that confused the heck out of BYU? All WAC BYU MLB Bob Davis was running around like a chicken without a head. Of course, as soon as Paul leaves for Navy, UH loses steam, Wags gets canned, and Fred von Appen comes in with the promise to run the flavor of the day, the West Coast offense, from Day 1 with spread option QBs Glenn Freitas and Hunter Young with an inexperienced OC in Guy Benjamin. JJ did not fare well in his second year because he lost guys like his triggerman Dan Robinson, Jeff Ulbrich, etc. - all JUCO transfers which were von Appen's quick fix recruiting focus - and had to start anew at QB in a QB-centric offense with JUCO transfer Rolo and freshman Timmy C. TG was not left with having to replace much, and has had a virtually intact and experienced O-line, QBs and WRs due to Rolo's emphasis on recruiting high school seniors and JC players who were qualifiers out of high school and had three years of remaining eligibility. Here, it's having an inexperienced, unqualified FBS OC is the primary issue with the incoherent mishmash offense with head-scratching playcalling. Sure, coaches do not drop passes, throw ints., miss blocks, etc., but the talent is there to win more than 4 games, 3 of which are to middling FCS Big Sky Portland State and seriously struggling NMSU.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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cabanalane wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:13 am I won't take anything from McMackin, but if he never made those PC comments, I think UH football would have had a great program. Correct me if I'm wrong, but McMackin was Jones 2.0. He kept everything pretty much intact.

To talk about the sad years, both Von Appen and Chow had to start over. There were systems and players in place that don't fit their plans. By the time they figure out which side is up, fans started to chant for their jobs.

We can say the same with TG. Either we stick it out with TG (and Bo.) Or UH will never have a strong program if coaches keep coming in and out.
Von Appen had 3 years following successful Tomey and Wagner years: 5-31. (Tomey: 63-46) (Wagner: 58-49)

Chow had 4 years following successful Jones and McMackin years: 10-36. (Jones: 76-41) (McMackin: 29-25)

Graham in two years following a some-what-successful Rolovich: 9-11 --> 11-11 to end the year? (Rolovich: 28-27)

McMackin's comments (paraphrased): "Notre Dame did their "diggity dance"..."oh, I don't mean to offend those people..." Yeah, I'm not sure that triggered the end to a successful era. Fans seemed to be more upset by the loss to Wisconsin which resulted in a losing season...and the bowl losses to Notre Dame and Todd Graham's former team, Tulsa. Although Mack brought Hawaii to a WAC Championship and 2 bowl games, he also had two 6-7 seasons. His final year was again stymied by a loss to another really good team: Brigham Young. We paid off McMackin to go away ($600k) and had to endure 4 years of Norman.

Let's face it: Fred Von Appen and Norm Chow were never cut out to be head coaches.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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Let's not forget how Bryant Moniz went down. If he was healthy, McMackin's record may be better. IIRC, the offense literally stalled without Moniz.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

Post by Duster »

SundayJam wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:16 am
cabanalane wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:13 am I won't take anything from McMackin, but if he never made those PC comments, I think UH football would have had a great program. Correct me if I'm wrong, but McMackin was Jones 2.0. He kept everything pretty much intact.

To talk about the sad years, both Von Appen and Chow had to start over. There were systems and players in place that don't fit their plans. By the time they figure out which side is up, fans started to chant for their jobs.

We can say the same with TG. Either we stick it out with TG (and Bo.) Or UH will never have a strong program if coaches keep coming in and out.
Von Appen had 3 years following successful Tomey and Wagner years: 5-31. (Tomey: 63-46) (Wagner: 58-49)

Chow had 4 years following successful Jones and McMackin years: 10-36. (Jones: 76-41) (McMackin: 29-25)

Graham in two years following a some-what-successful Rolovich: 9-11 --> 11-11 to end the year? (Rolovich: 28-27)

McMackin's comments (paraphrased): "Notre Dame did their "diggity dance"..."oh, I don't mean to offend those people..." Yeah, I'm not sure that triggered the end to a successful era. Fans seemed to be more upset by the loss to Wisconsin which resulted in a losing season...and the bowl losses to Notre Dame and Todd Graham's former team, Tulsa. Although Mack brought Hawaii to a WAC Championship and 2 bowl games, he also had two 6-7 seasons. His final year was again stymied by a loss to another really good team: Brigham Young. We paid off McMackin to go away ($600k) and had to endure 4 years of Norman.

Let's face it: Fred Von Appen and Norm Chow were never cut out to be head coaches.
Fred von Appen and Norm Chow were career assistants who decided to take the head coach plunge. No one disagrees that they did not have what it takes, especially here. They both had visions of chasing championships, but it did not work out. They looked okay on paper, and Norm had a reputation as an offensive whiz with a national assistant coach of the year under his belt, with Philip Rivers and Matt Leinert among the QBs he worked with. On the other hand, Todd Graham has proven his head coaching chops so I believe he was the right choice - kind of how i thought Dirk Koetter was the right choice after Mack (but Jim Donovan and the search committee were nixed by MRC Greenwood). The Captain Obvious conclusion on what is bedeviling us is the coaching on the offensive side (and special teams to an extent). I expect TG to address it - hopefully with an OC on down who experienced success in their craft.

With NC, the results are all on him. The support with Chow Time, etc. was there. With von Appen, there really were some things beyond his control like the OC carousel he dealt with - with Guy Benjamin in year one to install the west coast offense but having to take a medical leave, Wally English with CFL experience installing pro concepts, and his hving a falling out with Wally and being unable to bring in another OC so nationally respected DC Don Lindsey bites the bullet and takes on that role even though his entire career was spent as a defensive coach. Of course the results were no bueno.

With that said and paraphrasing Yogi Berra, the season isn't over till its over. The program - players and coaches - still can do great things in the remaining two games. Cohesive strategy and scheming that takes advantage of our strengths by the OC to develop some rhythm would be nice. One can revisit the sophomore jinx notion after the season is over as history has yet to be made. The players and coaches can determine their own fate and obliterate this second year swoon discussion.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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cabanalane wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:15 am Let's not forget how Bryant Moniz went down. If he was healthy, McMackin's record may be better. IIRC, the offense literally stalled without Moniz.
We were also having a very good season until Alexander went down. McMackin was doing fine. Fans criticized him and went after him for his persona in public appearances. Firing him was a big mistake.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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TheDuke wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:37 am
cabanalane wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:15 am Let's not forget how Bryant Moniz went down. If he was healthy, McMackin's record may be better. IIRC, the offense literally stalled without Moniz.
We were also having a very good season until Alexander went down. McMackin was doing fine. Fans criticized him and went after him for his persona in public appearances. Firing him was a big mistake.
I liked Mac. He was one of my favorite coaches. He was the only one who return my emails. Even just before he left.
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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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Mac was the defensive coordinator for Mike Leach at Texas Tech. Aranda was a graduate assistant there at the same time. Leach never had a losing season at Tech in his ten years there. When I look at his time at Wazu and Mississippi State...I wonder. His first three years at Wazu: 3-9, 6-7, 3-9. He had winning seasons thereafter until his final 6-7 year turning the program over to Rolovich. At Mississippi State, he went 4-7 and currently holds a 6-4 winning record. He's being considered for the head coaching job at Texas Tech again.

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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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SundayJam wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:18 am Mac was the defensive coordinator for Mike Leach at Texas Tech. Aranda was a graduate assistant there at the same time. Leach never had a losing season at Tech in his ten years there. When I look at his time at Wazu and Mississippi State...I wonder. His first three years at Wazu: 3-9, 6-7, 3-9. He had winning seasons thereafter until his final 6-7 year turning the program over to Rolovich. At Mississippi State, he went 4-7 and currently holds a 6-4 winning record. He's being considered for the head coaching job at Texas Tech again.
He's going to Big 12 from SEC?
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Re: A look at the recent U.H. Coaches and their record during their second season at the helm

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SundayJam wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:18 am Mac was the defensive coordinator for Mike Leach at Texas Tech. Aranda was a graduate assistant there at the same time. Leach never had a losing season at Tech in his ten years there. When I look at his time at Wazu and Mississippi State...I wonder. His first three years at Wazu: 3-9, 6-7, 3-9. He had winning seasons thereafter until his final 6-7 year turning the program over to Rolovich. At Mississippi State, he went 4-7 and currently holds a 6-4 winning record. He's being considered for the head coaching job at Texas Tech again.
Texas Tech already hired their new head coach 11 days ago, Joey McGuire from Baylor
https://www.yahoo.com/now/sources-texas ... 49856.html

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