2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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bandits1 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:07 pm To be clear, Fontes won ScoringLive's Offensive Player Of The Year.

I'm gonna have to mostly agree with HS Football Fanatic here, the POY should be the best player in their sport regardless of how far their TEAM goes in the state tourney or even if they don't make it into the tourney. Fontes missed the OIA Championship game and the entire state tourney, which gave the players on Kamehameha and Campbell, the two teams that made it to the state championship game, an extra 3 games to catch her up in scoring but nobody could do it. Nobody in the state tourney could do it. That's pretty dominant if you ask me.

We're not talking about an MVP award, we're talking about best offensive player. Even if was simply best player all-around, it's clearly Fontes. As far as I know she's the only Hawaii female soccer player in some time to be on a legit Olympic track. Let's just hope she can rebound 100% from her knee injury.
@bandits1: Fontes is a senior, right? If her knee heals, I hope she plays for UH.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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^^^I believe she's already signed with UCLA. Good for her if her goal is indeed the Olympics. Perennially ranked and on ESPN occasionally, not to mention that the PAC-12 has their own cable network. If your goal is to someday play against the best on the planet, gotta start facing super-tough competition as early and often as possible. Can't do that staying at home.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Hooper wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:22 pm Last year I didn't think Ng deserved player of the year because he was playing D2. Tolu deserved POY. This year, even though St. Francis didn't make the state tournament, I feel like Ng deserved it. I understand that he played for a coach and a system that benefitted him; however, you can't hold that against the player. Maryknoll and Punahou especially, rotate players so often kids that play on these teams will never put up the kind of stats that Ng did. Kids that play at these schools understand this, and if they don't, they end up transferring out.
Being called the best player in the entire state but not getting .0001 seconds of state tournament time SHOULD matter. The ILH got one more spot in the state tournament because Saint Francis finally decided to move up. They were holding the ILH back from getting 3 spots all these years. They beat Punahou and 'Iolani in regular season they had the ability to go to the state tournament. Ng played on a team that ran their entire offense through him, his dad was on the bench and hardly ever took him out. You tell me what kid on Punahou or Maryknoll who averaged a modest 10-15 ppg in a platoon style system wouldn't have benefitted in that type of situation that Ng had? Why can't you hold that against him? Sure we can. He was allowed to play all game beit a blowout loss or a blowout win. That has happened the last 3 seasons that I can remember. I mean heck if we're going to salivate over the fact that he had a 40 pt game, let's look at the kid from Nanakuli who had 60-something this season. Ng's awards were written in stone before the season even began. The media knew very well they were gonna give it to him and make him one of a handful of back-to-back Gatorade awardees. If he was able to take his team to states, I would shut my mouth about it. To me, that was his only goal he needed to obtain in order to sweep the awards. He still didn't, and this state gave it to him anyway because this state is a bunch of stat (points) watchers.

If he is truly, truly truly, the unanimous no-question player of the year, then why didn't the ILH even name him the MVP of their league? He couldn't even convince those who vote for his league he was the best.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Naz wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:06 pm
Hooper wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:22 pm Last year I didn't think Ng deserved player of the year because he was playing D2. Tolu deserved POY. This year, even though St. Francis didn't make the state tournament, I feel like Ng deserved it. I understand that he played for a coach and a system that benefitted him; however, you can't hold that against the player. Maryknoll and Punahou especially, rotate players so often kids that play on these teams will never put up the kind of stats that Ng did. Kids that play at these schools understand this, and if they don't, they end up transferring out.
Being called the best player in the entire state but not getting .0001 seconds of state tournament time SHOULD matter. The ILH got one more spot in the state tournament because Saint Francis finally decided to move up. They were holding the ILH back from getting 3 spots all these years. They beat Punahou and 'Iolani in regular season they had the ability to go to the state tournament. Ng played on a team that ran their entire offense through him, his dad was on the bench and hardly ever took him out. You tell me what kid on Punahou or Maryknoll who averaged a modest 10-15 ppg in a platoon style system wouldn't have benefitted in that type of situation that Ng had? Why can't you hold that against him? Sure we can. He was allowed to play all game beit a blowout loss or a blowout win. That has happened the last 3 seasons that I can remember. I mean heck if we're going to salivate over the fact that he had a 40 pt game, let's look at the kid from Nanakuli who had 60-something this season. Ng's awards were written in stone before the season even began. The media knew very well they were gonna give it to him and make him one of a handful of back-to-back Gatorade awardees. If he was able to take his team to states, I would shut my mouth about it. To me, that was his only goal he needed to obtain in order to sweep the awards. He still didn't, and this state gave it to him anyway because this state is a bunch of stat (points) watchers.

If he is truly, truly truly, the unanimous no-question player of the year, then why didn't the ILH even name him the MVP of their league? He couldn't even convince those who vote for his league he was the best.
@Naz: What? A player from Nanakuli High had 60+ points in a game this year? That must be some kind of record. I didn't know about it. The media should have brought it to the public's attention.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:46 pm
@Naz: What? A player from Nanakuli High had 60+ points in a game this year? That must be some kind of record. I didn't know about it. The media should have brought it to the public's attention.
The media did write an article about it....http://www.hawaiiprepworld.com/boys-bas ... oint-club/

But I mean, whoop-de-doo. The kid did it against arguably the weakest team on the entire island. Probably cherry picked and was fed the ball the entire game. People have to read between the lines. The kid played the whole game in a 40 point blowout win. I just don't get how people don't follow up and realize how this 60 points was scored and against whom. To me, this was a game fabricated for this kid to score that much.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Naz wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:31 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:46 pm
@Naz: What? A player from Nanakuli High had 60+ points in a game this year? That must be some kind of record. I didn't know about it. The media should have brought it to the public's attention.
The media did write an article about it....http://www.hawaiiprepworld.com/boys-bas ... oint-club/

But I mean, whoop-de-doo. The kid did it against arguably the weakest team on the entire island. Probably cherry picked and was fed the ball the entire game. People have to read between the lines. The kid played the whole game in a 40 point blowout win. I just don't get how people don't follow up and realize how this 60 points was scored and against whom. To me, this was a game fabricated for this kid to score that much.
@Naz: Oh, no wonder I didn't know. I never visit the hawaiiprepworld website. Still, the Star-Advertiser or scoringlive should have mentioned it. I mean, when a basketball player scores 60+ points, I think that really is a big deal, even if the opposing school's team sucks. I bet Waialua alumni were pissed that the Nanakuli coach kept the player in the game, running-up the score. That might have put that coach on Waialua High's doo-doo list. Coaches from other schools might resent it, too, which might put that coach on those coaches' doo-doo lists, too.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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"Being called the best player in the entire state but not getting .0001 seconds of state tournament time SHOULD matter. The ILH got one more spot in the state tournament because Saint Francis finally decided to move up. They were holding the ILH back from getting 3 spots all these years. They beat Punahou and 'Iolani in regular season they had the ability to go to the state tournament. Ng played on a team that ran their entire offense through him, his dad was on the bench and hardly ever took him out. You tell me what kid on Punahou or Maryknoll who averaged a modest 10-15 ppg in a platoon style system wouldn't have benefitted in that type of situation that Ng had? Why can't you hold that against him? Sure we can. He was allowed to play all game beit a blowout loss or a blowout win. That has happened the last 3 seasons that I can remember. I mean heck if we're going to salivate over the fact that he had a 40 pt game, let's look at the kid from Nanakuli who had 60-something this season. Ng's awards were written in stone before the season even began. The media knew very well they were gonna give it to him and make him one of a handful of back-to-back Gatorade awardees. If he was able to take his team to states, I would shut my mouth about it. To me, that was his only goal he needed to obtain in order to sweep the awards. He still didn't, and this state gave it to him anyway because this state is a bunch of stat (points) watchers.

If he is truly, truly truly, the unanimous no-question player of the year, then why didn't the ILH even name him the MVP of their league? He couldn't even convince those who vote for his league he was the best."

Naz,

I do believe the media favors certain players and Ng is one of them. But if you look back over the years, that's what the media does. They promote the household names. If St. Francis made it to the state tournament this year and lost in the first round. Then the argument would be he couldn't get past the first round. If they lost in the semis, then it would be he couldn't get his team to the championship. No one can stop him. The boy can score, he is a player. If he doesn't deserve it, then who does? Kamata? Tobin? If you pick one of these Maryknoll players, their ppg are about 10 less then what Ng averaged. Last year people were saying if St. Francis played in Div 1, he wouldn't put up numbers. They played Div 1 and he still put up numbers. Don't get me wrong, I get your being in the state tournament rationale. However, this year, I don't see a clear cut POY. Last year it was clearly Tolu. Since this year was a toss up, I'm guessing ppg played a huge factor.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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I kind of agree with you, Hooper. As good as a player is, he can't be expected to win a game all by himself. St Francis might very well have made it to States if Iolani hadn't been hot from the perimeter in the playoff game. After all, St Francis had beaten Iolani just a few days earlier. If a player is the best in the state, I feel it shouldn't matter which school he's playing for. If he is the best, he's the best, period, right? After all, he is the same kid, the same player, no matter which school he's at, right?

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Hooper wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:33 am Naz,

I do believe the media favors certain players and Ng is one of them. But if you look back over the years, that's what the media does. They promote the household names. If St. Francis made it to the state tournament this year and lost in the first round. Then the argument would be he couldn't get past the first round. If they lost in the semis, then it would be he couldn't get his team to the championship. No one can stop him. The boy can score, he is a player. If he doesn't deserve it, then who does? Kamata? Tobin? If you pick one of these Maryknoll players, their ppg are about 10 less then what Ng averaged. Last year people were saying if St. Francis played in Div 1, he wouldn't put up numbers. They played Div 1 and he still put up numbers. Don't get me wrong, I get your being in the state tournament rationale. However, this year, I don't see a clear cut POY. Last year it was clearly Tolu. Since this year was a toss up, I'm guessing ppg played a huge factor.
To me, all Ng had to do was take his team to states. Saint Francis was the big fish in the small pond at D2 for the past 2 seasons prior to finally moving up to D1. For me, the ONLY test Ng had this year was to lead his team to the state tournament. Anything else beyond that would've been icing on the cake. For all the hype he got over the years as the best player in the state (even when he was in Division 2), he should have at least reached that milestone in his only year in division 1. People were crowning him the best player before the season even started. Can you imagine what this state and the media would've done if he got past the 1st round of the state tournament? They would've anointed him the best player from Hawai'i ever, possibly. If you have been called the best player in this state going back 2-3 years regardless of division, and you as a player have self-proclaimed yourself a Division 1 collegiate prospect, then you need to take your damn team to the state tournament in Hawai'i where the level of basketball is classified as AA - no ifs ands or buts. By getting the Gatorade Award 2 years in a row, the history books will now put this kid in the same breath as guys like Derrick Low and Alika Smith. But those guys played in division 1 (when there was no division 2) and took their teams to the state tournament every year they won their awards.

I have addressed this before but the fact that you point to Kamata and Tobin only scoring 10 ppg to Ng's 20+ ppg only goes to show that this state only salivates for points. Points, points, points. Maryknoll didn't run their offense through Kamata unlike Saint Francis where Ng was allowed to take damn near every and any shot he wanted without sitting out significant minutes. I saw Saint Francis beat Damien by 20 points in the 2018 D2 state championship and he was still in the game shooting. Likewise, I saw him getting blown out in the last 'Iolani Classic by an out of state school and he was in the whole game chucking it up down by 50. Ng didn't even average 2 assists per game in the 'Iolani Classic - you're a "D1 prospect" point guard but can't average 2 assists? Imagine if most players in Kamata's position got to play on a team where they had a dad on the bench and did not come out the game regardless of shot selection. Many players would have thrived in that situation. Kamata should have won the Gatorade and State Player of the Year - He was the ILH Player of the Year AND the State Tournament Most Outstanding Player of the Year for pete's sake! In 10/10 years, those two accomplishments should automatically give you the Gatorade and Star-Advertiser.

I, for one, wasn't doubting that he wasn't going to score his points when he moved up to D1. I mean, he was allowed to play the whole game and shoot anything he wanted! I don't buy the fact that he was the only talent on his team. He had his brother (who in my opinion is a more all-around talent) and they proved they could beat top teams this year like Damien (without Ng in the lineup), 'Iolani, and Punahou. There were no excuses for missing the state tournament. His being given the award was a slap in the face of the talented players who took their teams deep and a statement made by the media that points - and points alone - matter most. If Saint Francis could do it all again, I'm sure they would've just stayed down in Division 2, possibly win a 3rd state title, and he still would've won the Gatorade and Star-Advertiser POY. Because this state doesn't have the sense to differentiate between the talent in divisions. They care about points.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Naz,

I totally get what you're saying. I agree that points shouldn't be the only thing POY is based on. However, if you don't base it on points, then what should it be based on? Being the best player on the best team? Being league POY and Tournament MOP? If this is the case, then Zayne Chong should have won it last year. As great of a player as he was, I still believe Tolu deserved it. But you make a great case. We can discuss this forever, which make this entertaining.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Hooper wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:36 pm Naz,

I totally get what you're saying. I agree that points shouldn't be the only thing POY is based on. However, if you don't base it on points, then what should it be based on? Being the best player on the best team? Being league POY and Tournament MOP? If this is the case, then Zayne Chong should have won it last year. As great of a player as he was, I still believe Tolu deserved it. But you make a great case. We can discuss this forever, which make this entertaining.
@Hooper: If it's OK, I'd like to contribute to the conversation, too. My trip is that I feel that if there's a player who's the Player-of-the-Year, then it shouldn't matter which school he's playing for. One of the guys on this thread said Waialua High probably has the weakest team on the island. OK, but what if Ng happened to be playing for them? If he's the best, then the "fact"--(if it is a fact)--that Waialua High has the weakest team, should have no bearing. We're talking about the Player of the Year, not the School of the Year or the Team of the Year. The last thing I want to see is good players avoiding weak schools, just because that might hurt their chances of being POY. In fact, I would like to see good players play for schools with weak teams, because then that might help those weak schools shine. Spread the aloha.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Hooper wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:36 pm Naz,

I totally get what you're saying. I agree that points shouldn't be the only thing POY is based on. However, if you don't base it on points, then what should it be based on? Being the best player on the best team? Being league POY and Tournament MOP? If this is the case, then Zayne Chong should have won it last year. As great of a player as he was, I still believe Tolu deserved it. But you make a great case. We can discuss this forever, which make this entertaining.
If you say Chong should've won it last year, there is not that much argument to make against that. Again, Chong led his team to the state championship and won the league and most outstanding tournament awards. Tolu was also deserving of it because of his all around stats. He practically led a very weak Kahuku team to the state finals single-handedly. Both guys lost the Gatorade award that year to a D2 player - Ng... because why?.... POINTS! It should be based on some level of merit not just how much you can light up the scoring column.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:43 pm
@Hooper: If it's OK, I'd like to contribute to the conversation, too. My trip is that I feel that if there's a player who's the Player-of-the-Year, then it shouldn't matter which school he's playing for. One of the guys on this thread said Waialua High probably has the weakest team on the island. OK, but what if Ng happened to be playing for them? If he's the best, then the "fact"--(if it is a fact)--that Waialua High has the weakest team, should have no bearing. We're talking about the Player of the Year, not the School of the Year or the Team of the Year. The last thing I want to see is good players avoiding weak schools, just because that might hurt their chances of being POY. In fact, I would like to see good players play for schools with weak teams, because then that might help those weak schools shine. Spread the aloha.
I was the one that pointed out Waialua was the weakest school on the island. I stand by that. I have seen guys average close to Ng's numbers who played for teams like AOP (when they were division 2), Assets, Nanakuli, etc. There's more to being the best player in the entire state than being able to isolate and score. Look at NCAA D1 stats. The three top scorers in the country play for 3 small schools - Campbell, Hofstra, and Detroit Mercy. None of those three guys are going to be considered the best player in the entire D1 NCAA just because they scored the most points per game. Who your competition is, how well your game was in all categories, and how far you took your team get taken into consideration when considering who is the best of the best.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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Naz wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:16 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:43 pm
@Hooper: If it's OK, I'd like to contribute to the conversation, too. My trip is that I feel that if there's a player who's the Player-of-the-Year, then it shouldn't matter which school he's playing for. One of the guys on this thread said Waialua High probably has the weakest team on the island. OK, but what if Ng happened to be playing for them? If he's the best, then the "fact"--(if it is a fact)--that Waialua High has the weakest team, should have no bearing. We're talking about the Player of the Year, not the School of the Year or the Team of the Year. The last thing I want to see is good players avoiding weak schools, just because that might hurt their chances of being POY. In fact, I would like to see good players play for schools with weak teams, because then that might help those weak schools shine. Spread the aloha.
I was the one that pointed out Waialua was the weakest school on the island. I stand by that. I have seen guys average close to Ng's numbers who played for teams like AOP (when they were division 2), Assets, Nanakuli, etc. There's more to being the best player in the entire state than being able to isolate and score. Look at NCAA D1 stats. The three top scorers in the country play for 3 small schools - Campbell, Hofstra, and Detroit Mercy. None of those three guys are going to be considered the best player in the entire D1 NCAA just because they scored the most points per game. Who your competition is, how well your game was in all categories, and how far you took your team get taken into consideration when considering who is the best of the best.
@Naz: OK, but in effect that's going to discourage good players from attending weak schools. That will only perpetuate--if not worsen--the disparity between strong basketball schools and weak basketball schools. That will further aggravate the gap between the "have" schools and the "have not" schools when it comes to basketball talent. I suspect alumni on this site whose alma mater is a "have not" when it comes to basketball, would love to see a player like Ng play for that school. That's far less likely to happen if playing for that school will lower his chances of making POY, just because his supporting cast isn't good enough to help him get that school to States. There has to be a distinction between Player of the Year, and School or Team of the Year. If the system is fair, then Ng could have played for Waialua High instead of St Francis School, and still be POY. Kameron Ng is Kameron Ng, whether he's wearing a St Francis uni or a Waialua uni.

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Re: 2018-2019 Boy's Basketball Thread

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:24 pm
@Naz: OK, but in effect that's going to discourage good players from attending weak schools. That will only perpetuate--if not worsen--the disparity between strong basketball schools and weak basketball schools. That will further aggravate the gap between the "have" schools and the "have not" schools when it comes to basketball talent. I suspect alumni on this site whose alma mater is a "have not" when it comes to basketball, would love to see a player like Ng play for that school. That's far less likely to happen if playing for that school will lower his chances of making POY, just because his supporting cast isn't good enough to help him get that school to States. There has to be a distinction between Player of the Year, and School or Team of the Year. If the system is fair, then Ng could have played for Waialua High instead of St Francis School, and still be POY. Kameron Ng is Kameron Ng, whether he's wearing a St Francis uni or a Waialua uni.
You better hope those "have not" schools who want Ng will allow his dad to be a coach on the bench and allow his son to chuck it up like he did at Saint Francis. My point was there have been MANY players like Ng who have come before him who averaged 20+ for small schools. A major part of his hype was the fact that Saint Francis dominated division 2 and won back-to-back Division 2 titles. What about the kids who played in an era where the Division 2 didn't have their own state tournament. From around 2006 and before, the best "small school" had to earn a spot in the ILH DIVISION ONE tournament by playing the highest seed for one of the two remaining ILH state births. If Saint Francis played in that era, they would've likely had to play Punahou or 'Iolani every year in the opening round of the ILH state tournament to go to states.

My point is we have seen players like Ng in this state before. They were not elevated to this level of hype and pedestal because like I mentioned they may have not played in the era of Division 2 state tournaments or been around for the social media age where everybody hypes you up online. Unless a player at a low to mid-major takes his team deep into the NCAA state tournament, we will never consider them the best player of the NCAA Division 1. Can you imagine if they named the nation's leading scorer, who plays for Campbell, as the National Player of the Year because he led the nation in scoring yet didn't even get to the NCAA tournament? That would be blasphemous. Yet, that is similar to what this state has done in my opinion with Ng.

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