Track and Field 2010

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kautech
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by kautech »

re: 2010 State Meet Qualifiers

You can expect the 2010 Standards to be released within the next couple of days

There will be 26 qualifiers not 24 in each of the "laned" races ... 4 heats

Anyway, we're polluted with hand times, and they should not be accepted as qualifying in the sprints up to and including 400m ...

... you got a bunch of OIA guys with sub 11 hand times which every year get corrected at the state meet with 11.45+ FAT ...

BIIF is FAT, ILH is FAT, MIL is FAT, KIF is FAT ... why can't the OIA use the Lynx systems???

RunJonPaulAMPM
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by RunJonPaulAMPM »

kautech wrote:re: 2010 State Meet Qualifiers

You can expect the 2010 Standards to be released within the next couple of days

There will be 26 qualifiers not 24 in each of the "laned" races ... 4 heats

Anyway, we're polluted with hand times, and they should not be accepted as qualifying in the sprints up to and including 400m ...

... you got a bunch of OIA guys with sub 11 hand times which every year get corrected at the state meet with 11.45+ FAT ...

BIIF is FAT, ILH is FAT, MIL is FAT, KIF is FAT ... why can't the OIA use the Lynx systems???
I agree, the OIA is behind the times. Even though they are the largest league in Hawaii and host simultaneously at 3 track sites now, they should work on getting FAT equipment at those sites and training personnel to operate them. A major problem with the OIA hand times is the quality of the times. Since all their Championship meets are FAT, the level of experience of OIA personnel doing the officiating (usually assigned schools at the meet using other coaches, parents or volunteers) as timers has gone down. Prior to FAT timing, when Championship meets were hand timed, they had a timer and a spotter, because times were done by PLACE, but in the OIA preseason meets the timers that they have been doing timing by lanes, so there is no accountability for the accuracy of the times. The first place/higher place timers are supposed to have the priority times and the other place timers have to adjust to those times ahead of them, but there are instances were a lower place finisher has a faster time than the heat winner, which would not happen if they were timing properly. The rationalization is that it is only a preseason meet, so place doesn't matter, but it does if you want to insure accurate times.
The OIA has at least enough timing equipment to have FAT timing at two sites, since they have FAT timed their Eastern and Western Division meets on the same day, so they are able to have preseason meets at two sites with automatic timing. Their preseason schedules were able to accomodate having only two host sites, prior to Roosevelt getting their rubberized track, so they should be able to run an auto timed preaseason with two sites, until they can get funds for another set of equipment for a 3rd site.
Let's get with the program OIA!

808HOTSHOTS
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by 808HOTSHOTS »

Amen! Kautech and Runjonpaul regarding accuracy of hand times. Does anyone know what it cost for the system?

On another note, What is the deal with Freshman running in the Intermediates Championships (ILH) This should be a race for the Intermediates to shine. Just looking at the 800m girls run they had 4 Freshmen in that race, in other words they took the spot of 4 real Intermediates. Kudo's to Punahou and Sacred Hearts (that I know of) for not getting in the way.

HI Way
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by HI Way »

[quote="808HOTSHOTS"]Amen! Kautech and Runjonpaul regarding accuracy of hand times. Does anyone know what it cost for the system?quote]

The Finish Lynx camera system is available in packages that range from $7.5K to $17K and the Hy-Tek Meet Manager system is an additional $700. This may be a problem for a public school system that is already cutting the budget for sports by laying off 25% of its coaches, and minimizing its sports seasons by 25% in addition to the Furlough Friday debacle.

kautech
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by kautech »

I wasn't saying everyone should go out and buy another Lynx/Hy-tek system, they should use the ones that they have (OIA has at least 2 that I know of)

Also, hand times should not be accepted for seeding purposes at the HHSAA meet ... Since OIA Diviisional Champs and OIA Champs are FAT, those times, if qualifying, should be entered ...

Anyway, OIA is the only league fully funded by the Dept of Education ... I'm sure they can find a way to get on board with FAT at all the meets ...

hzy
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by hzy »

If the OIA has 2 systems to use for the Divisional Meets then purchasing systems isn't the issue, is it?

On another note, I got to see the new qualifying standards for the state meet today and I am perplexed, to say the least. In some events the Auto standards have dropped while the Cons standards have gone up. Some of the new Auto standard times have dropped by a considerable amount, to the point where only 2 individuals have achieved them so far (girls 1500 and 3000, for example).

I can only think that the objective is to make the number of Auto qualifiers low enough so that there is not more than the maximum number or qualifiers that is wanted. If the goal is to make it so that there will only be a specific amount of athletes qualified per event, why don't we take the top "X number" athletes per event instead of having these laughable standards?

todaresq
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by todaresq »

Regarding hand timed meets... If the meet coordinators were using stopwatches, then I would throw the times out. If they were using 8 lane timers that have one starter startiing the clock then I would allow those times to be converted up to the FAT standards. FAT is great, however it's not foolproof, the personnel behind the screen still have to make the call. There's instances that they have failed, spotters choosing the wrong order of finish, confusing school colors at close finish...blah, blah, blah.

The major problem I have with everyone going FAT is that we've become too reliant on watching the finish line. When you have individual timers, those individuals timing were actually watching majority of the race and would catch infractions that happen away from the finish line. We all know that in the last few years there's been infractions at track meets that never get called because no one was watching around the track. Too much jostling, an elbow to the chest, cutting in on the curves, missed exchanges... blah, blah, blah. How does a volunteer make a judgement call when they don't even know what went on and if they did make a call, they're not honored because they're just volunteers.

RunJonPaulAMPM
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by RunJonPaulAMPM »

[quote="hzy"]If the OIA has 2 systems to use for the Divisional Meets then purchasing systems isn't the issue, is it? quote]

The OIA now has 3 all weather surface tracks - Kaiser, Roosevelt and Mililani, and their schedule has some preseason meets at all 3 sites at the same time, so if they were required to use FAT timing at all sites, they would need 3 sets of timing equipment and the personnel who can operate them. The reason for having meets at 3 sites is to reduce the size of each meet, because their primary concern is finishing early and not focusing on the welfare of the athletes, if there is not enough rest period between events, or the quality of the performances, since there is fewer competition at smaller meets. Currently the officiating at OIA meets is done by personnel provided by the assigned schools attending the meet, so if they are required to provide timers, data entry personnel, field event officials, relay zone judges, etc., the coaches, assistant coaches and any other volunteers they can find from each school at the meet, are the ones who do the officiating, which means that the level of the experience of the officials and the quality of the officiating varies from meet to meet and site to site, depending on which schools are attending. The OIA does not have the funding to pay for an assigned officiating crew, especially if they need enough of them to cover 3 sites.
I think the OIA should model their season on both the BIIF and the ILH, who have multiple sites where they can host, but only have meets at 2 sites, at most, during the week. Also in previous OIA seasons, as well as this season, there are preseason meets on both Friday and Saturday, which would allow for there to be more meets, reducing the number of teams attending, but still allow for the timing equipment to be available, since the meets aren't on the same day.
At the OIAs Championship Meets, they still use a hand timing crew as backup, which they can also use in the preseason, which would eliminate the "tunnel vision" officiating of using just the FAT device, as previously mentioned as being an issue.

HI Way
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by HI Way »

todaresq wrote:Regarding hand timed meets... If the meet coordinators were using stopwatches, then I would throw the times out.

Does this mean you would also throw out all the records that weren't electronic? So someone like Bryan Clay's times wouldn't count just because the times were recorded using a stopwatch? We need to focus on what is beneficial to the athletes and to the sport and not on making changes or policies that only accomodate the administration or officiating of the meet, because it causes the entire sport to suffer. People don't come to meets to watch officiating, and colleges don't award scholarships for meet administration, those things exist to provide the athletes a fair and organized environment in which to compete, and that is what the focus should be.

kautech
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by kautech »

hzy wrote:If the OIA has 2 systems to use for the Divisional Meets then purchasing systems isn't the issue, is it?

</snip> ... </snip>

I can only think that the objective is to make the number of Auto qualifiers low enough so that there is not more than the maximum number or qualifiers that is wanted. If the goal is to make it so that there will only be a specific amount of athletes qualified per event, why don't we take the top "X number" athletes per event instead of having these laughable standards?
Another solution ...

Top X amount of finishers from each league for each event, plus all of those that have made a strict Auto qualifying time/mark, then the CONS standard to fill heats ...

Hzy: under the current formula, we need to account for graduating seniors, averages of the last 3 years, etc, thus the "lower" CONS standard, although if you look at it, CONS is not really lower if you look at 5+ years of previous results (all available on my website) ...

Todar: I agree, the OIA (since all other leagues are FAT) should at the very least have the "octopus" at the hand timed meets ... of course MIL is way ahead of the curve here ... The MIL coordinator has at least gotten the league into TM/MM, and all meets have been FAT for the last 2 years ... remember when you had to wait for the spreadsheet???

HI-Way: Bryan Clay's HHSAA records don't count because most were recorded at Kaiser under wind-aided conditions ... Same goes for great sprinters like Jumanne Washingtion, Casey Flores, Larry Khan-Smith, etc ...

We need to make sure that qualifying times/marks are adequate, and that those student-athletes that meet those marks are entitled to attend and compete at the State level ... if we don't throw out hand times for sprints, that will never happen in those events ...

todaresq
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by todaresq »

In response to HI way... no one said to throw out past meet records. There are records that were set using stopwatches or 8/10 lane timers way before FAT were readily available, but in this day in age where leagues have access to FAT devices then that should serve as the primary timing. No one mentioned throwing out times, but maybe you can clear this up... with the hand timed meets this season... is there at least 2 or even 3 stopwatches timing the top finisher? If not, then how can you be sure that it's accurate. Some of the volunteers officials still believe that it's the body part that crosses the line first that counts rather than just the upper torso excluding the head. I've been to some of the meets, stood at the finish line and the times that I come up with are not that fast. And yes, i've officiated at meets and have a Level 1 IAAF certification with years of officiating and we still insist that there should be at least 2 - 3 stopwatches at the smaller meets that don't use FAT's.

Is it really benefiting the athletes when there's inaccuracies in the timing and some of them qualify based on hand times and occasionally bump off someone who ran slightly slower using FAT's? And regarding "People don't come to meets to watch officiating"... we'll, maybe they should and then there'll be more interest in the sport. Track and Field doesn't pay it's officials unlike the other sports and that's why there's a high turnover rate for volunteer officials and sometimes a more "relaxed" officiating approach. Officiating is a judgement call and if you're not a seasoned official, then how could you judge accurately. Using FAT's and eliminating some of the questionable finishes is all i'm trying to get at.

longroad
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by longroad »

just wondering with the OIA JV and Varsity championships coming up if the records list will be updated. The JV records list on the Mililani track page hasn't been updated since 2008 and there were at least 2 records broken at last years OIA JV meet in the boys and girls 1500m. Anyone know when, who, or how that is handled?

Ricky808by
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by Ricky808by »

longroad wrote:just wondering with the OIA JV and Varsity championships coming up if the records list will be updated. The JV records list on the Mililani track page hasn't been updated since 2008 and there were at least 2 records broken at last years OIA JV meet in the boys and girls 1500m. Anyone know when, who, or how that is handled?
The OIA doesn't have an official track page, at least one that is updated with the lastest results. The Mililani site is unofficial, but sometimes needs to do some updates and maintenance on some of its links and pages, since it has been around for over 10 years and some of the links are obsolete and long gone. The Hy-Tek Meet Manager program that is used for the results of all the OIA meets has the ability to update the records at the end of each meet, but is not always done, in order to generate the results showing the previous record that was broken. Otherwise the results will show it as a current record with no indication that the performance was able to exceed a previous record. The meet officials in charge should be updating their meet databases, prior to the start of the next season, and generate a database with the new records, to be used when entering the results for the current year.

hzy
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by hzy »

Anyone know where to get the updated state qualifying standards? The link on Kautech for them is not active.

jumpsensei
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Re: Track and Field 2010

Post by jumpsensei »

I am an OIA track coach and feel the current line of discussion is a personal affront to my intelligence. Why in God's name, do we need 8 to 10 FAT timers at our meets? Our timers come in all sizes and volunteer their time to help our local athletes. Last night at the Eastern Champs, we had at most three FAT ones. Do you realize how politically incorrect it is to profile obese officials in this day?

Mitchell Otani who has been involved with OIA track for 35 years is the closest to FAT. He used to hurdle for Kalani in the early 70's but would need a forklift to get over one these days. Our FAT conversion table allowed Dennis Swartz (Kaiser) to be a timer last night because it was deemed that if he was 18 inches shorter, he would indeed be FAT.

Lastly, why is there a need to spell FAT in caps? These people know they're fat without people shouting it out to them. If we had a Krispy Kreme on Oahu, it would at least level the playing field with the MIL.

We of the OIA are going to pool our vast resources and purchase laser optic equipment to measure our horizontal jumps because we wouldn't want our 26th in the State jumper to miss the opportunity to compete with Hawaii's best.

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