Cross Country 2009

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asiaobserver
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Re: Cross Country 2009

#46 Post by asiaobserver » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:16 pm

the new girl at Punahou is Ellie Lau ( I think that is her last name ). Runs track and plays soccer.

HIway
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Re: Cross Country 2009

#47 Post by HIway » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:53 pm

The name of our "mystery girl" is Elli Brady! She has ran in the Mililani Summer Track Club the last few years and i'm definitly looking forward to watching her progress this season.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#48 Post by MilRunFan » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:15 pm

Here's a "fun" fact for the season. If "Mystery Girl" is Elli Brady, then Gabby Jenkins is her good friend. They hung out at Summer track. OIA vs ILH #1's and they're BFF's?

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#49 Post by lava » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:42 pm

HIway wrote:The name of our "mystery girl" is Elli Brady! She has ran in the Mililani Summer Track Club the last few years and i'm definitly looking forward to watching her progress this season.
Related to former Honolulu marathoner Cheryl Brady?

fasttimes
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Re: Cross Country 2009

#50 Post by fasttimes » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:53 pm

This Brady girl is from Canada

The corrected top 5 Girls from Kaawa Meet is:
1. Brady, Pun.
2. Wong, Iolani
3. Morrissey, Iolani
4. Ball, Iolani
5. Mann, Pun.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#51 Post by 800runner » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:40 pm

Oops... thanks for the correction. I guess my memory isn't great... I don't even remember seeing Morrissey.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#52 Post by nogutsnoglory » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:32 pm

I would like to dedicate this post to my good friend Al Linsky who passed away recently. We used to spend hours talking about XC and like he always said "Its not me stupid I'm only the messenger". No it was me Anonymous.
Anyway here we go again. You really have to first look back to last year before you can even begin to talk about this season. You need to take a fresh look at the results and analyze what it all meant. I think people would like to read that than some weekly recap,

It seems to me that a few bother to take a step back and look at the big picture. We'll start with trying to figure out which teams had a good season and which teams had a bad season. also who had a good state meet and those that had a bad one. There were two teams ranked in the top 5 that didn't live up to there hype. Biggest disappointments for the women was Mililani. Ranked #1 most of the season. Everyone picked them to win it all, they even had me believing they could win. What happened to such a great team. What ever it was it happened before the gun even went off , a complete melt down. The other team that had a poor state meet Kamehameha Oahu.

Best performance for teams ranked in the top 5 were Punahou and Seabury Hall. Punahou did what they always do, they have a very good coach in Duncan Mcdonald who has the ability of taking average runners and making them good. Also he understands how to win state meets. It is not rocket science. Seabury Hall who I call "The little Giant" for there school size 260 and the unusual amount of talented girls that they have. i still can't believe they got second after losing both there 2 and 5th runners at the state meet. They have a run till you drop mentality which allot of teams do not.

So now here we are it is the 2009 XC season and everyone is already making predictions. And look who they are picking to do well again Mililani. Ok maybe they learned something from last season. I am not going to rank runners and teams as I have in the past but I will tell you who i like. Individual runner. I like Hailey Grossman. Why. Just like Massenburg she is a senior there is no tomorrow. Also she is the State 3000 meter champ twice!. The other reason I like her is the state meet course. flat and fast it fits Grossmans type of running. What teams do I like. Punahou the state large school champion and the other school that will win everything from the 200 meters through the 3000 including a 1-2 finnish in the 1500 meters at this years state track meet, you guess who it is. Yours truly Anonymous

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#53 Post by 800runner » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:50 pm

nogutsnoglory-
I never knew coach Al, but I would always see him at XC or Track meets for the last few years... may he rest in peace.
Your mystery school is Seabury Hall, right? Kalia Tracy-Visintainer (spelling?) 200-400m, Lea Lundblad 800-1500m, and Hailey Grossman 1500-3k should all be good runners, but who do they have after that? They need a deep team to be a contender or Punahou will blow them away.
Speaking of depth, I think they should make 2 divisions for state championships. There is no way any of these small school teams could win state championships because so often, big schools have 7 solid runners, so in the event of injury they can still win it. But when small schools only have 5 solid runners, an injury or bad day can ruin chances at a championship. While realistically I don't see this happening soon because of budget cuts, maybe sometime in a few years they could change the policy.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#54 Post by hzy » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:42 pm

This idea about needing two divisions for cross country based on school size has been brought up before and I fully disagree with the arguments for it. If anything, there should be two divisions based on whether a school is public or private. For starters, the ability to recruit individuals before they get to the high school level allows private schools to develop a feeder system of talented runners they have identified. As long as those students start their high school years at that private school they are allowed to attend their regardless of where they live, without needing a geographic exemption or worrying about transfer rules. Schools like Seabury Hall may be smaller than others like Punahou, but Seabury still has the luxury of being able to identify talent, recruit it, and then offer that person financial aid to attend their school and help their program. This ability can help a school gain depth regardless of its size. The fact that Seabury was able to lose 2 of their top runners during the State Meet last year and still take second shows that it is an invalid argument to say they can't have depth because the school is too small.

Another reason I disagree with divisions based solely on school size is because of the number of team titles in both Cross Country and Track and Field that have been won by private schools, with Punahou leading the way. Looking back at the history of state champions in Hawaii, why haven't public schools with high enrollment numbers won state championships more regularly? Leilehua is the first public school to win a state title in boys Cross Country in 20 years, and on the girls side it's been nearly 30 years since a public school won a state championship! I don't want to assume an elitist attitude for those that don't see this as a problem, but how can these facts be ignored?

There has got to be changes to the enrollment and transfer rules as it pertains to private schools, or public and private schools need to be placed into different divisions.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#55 Post by mauioutlaw » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:07 am

I totally agree, given the stats, that there should be a D-I and D-II based on public or private schools. I think school teams built on solicitation with no geographic boundaries competeing with teams that are restricted due to geographic constraints, etc. unfairly tilt the outcome of State Tournaments. Someone should push for a revision. It doesn't have to cost any more than what is currently spent. The meets can still be run as they are, just seperating the results into D-I and D-II as they currently are for Varsity and JV. In this age of computers that shouldn't be hard.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#56 Post by Pun Dad » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:55 pm

I can see the beneits of the multiple divisions for the team sports. But for Cross country and the individual sports, what is the advantage? Based on the existing results, we can figure out which was the top public school, which was the top private school, and which school with fewer than 1000 students is the best. You split the cross country championship into divisions and you would not have a competition to determine who is the best school in the state and who is the top runner.

Life is not fair, and the field is not always level. For the Honokaa Boys CC team, there were plenty of reason not to finish ahead of Punahou at States, but they did. All sides lose when they don't have the opportunity to compete.

It was mentioned in earlier posts, that the Private Schools have an advantage as they start interscholastic competition in the intermediate level. I believe this advantage is as important as the selective admission. Athletic programs in the public intermediate schools can help level the playing field.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#57 Post by 800runner » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:33 pm

You make a point that they develop a feeder system for talented runners by scouting and recruiting. Justin Higa, the top runner for Iolani, didn't emerge until the middle of 9th grade. Jordan Thibodeau, one of Kamehameha's top runners, didn't even run distance until sophomore year. He was mostly playing soccer and running sprints. Punahou's top 4 all really came out of nowhere. Jon Hunter and Ian Terayama, their # 1 & 2's, didn't emerge until last year and are not really in contention for ILH championships. Shane Endicott and Ryan Lau, their # 3&4's didn't emerge until this year and are still running in the mid to upper 20's place , being beaten by almost the entire squads from Kamehameha and Iolani. On the girls side, Punahou's Julia Brand also didn't run distance until last year. She is a 300m hurdler and basketball player. How are these teams recruiting people that don't even emerge until well after their time in their school has began. Can you justify your claims otherwise?

And about the divisions based on private vs. public schools:
Wouldn't the state meet essentially become (D-1) ILH championships with Seabury, HPA, and Kam invited? What is the key word in state meet? STATE. It is not about private vs. public, it is to show who is the best in the STATE. Oh and the reference to budget cuts was not that it would have increased cost but rather that the HHSAA is limiting a lot of the state championships even if the cost is not lower. Ex. how does cutting the field of track champs from 32 to 26 reduce the cost if no heats are reduced?

Private schools have dominated the athletic scene for many years now. But what makes you assume that these schools recruit for all sports? Can you give me specific references as to which players they recruit? While I won't deny that recruiting or easy admission w/financial aid for star football, basketball, or baseball players occurs, I certainly don't think that is happening with cross country. Simply put, most of these runners go to private school to get a great education. Not to trash the DOE schools or anything but it is very clear, statistically speaking, that the "average" private school student does better than the "average" public school student.

At the moment, my mind is firmly set that private schools do not recruit for cross country. If you can give me specific evidence of otherwise, please inform me.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#58 Post by nogutsnoglory » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:43 pm

December 1, 2008 - Thoughts from Anonymous - Cross-Country


After coming back from the state meet I had many mixed feelings about the meet and high school cross country in Hawaii in general. And it had to do with some of the players. The one incident that really got my attention was Seabury Hall coming in second after losing their number 2 and 5 runner.

Over the last three years or since Hawaii moved from the two miles to three miles some factors have become evident. Schools with larger enrollment do have a distinct advantage over schools with small enrollments. That is a no brainer.

I just watched the California state meet held at Woodward park in Fresno. California has 5 divisions based on school enrollment size not wether they are public or private. For example if Seabury Hall was in California they would be in division 5 with under 500 students, they have 260. Punahou would be in division 2 or 3 with a much higher enrollment. If Hawaii had divisions 1 and 2 in high school cross country, Seabury Hall would have just celebrated it's third girls cross country state championship.

I beleive it is time to split into two divisions so as the smaller schools can compete against schools in their enrollment division. I believe Hawaii is the only state still without divisions in cross country. My suggestions would be to hold four races on the same course on the same day so you can compare times. California runs ten races starting early in the morning. Just like changing from two miles to three miles it is time to split it up into two divisions. In the long run it will encourage the kids and help the sport grow.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#59 Post by hzy » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:49 pm

800runner, I'm sure you don't mean to demean public schools, but your comment about students at private schools having more of chance at success is lacking some understanding about the impact of socioeconomic levels on educational achievement. There is more to the success at private schools other than the education that they offer. The majority of these students are coming from advantaged families that understand the importance of a good education. They have so many more advantages than the majority of the students attending DOE schools it is unfair to bash the DOE schools themselves for not providing a sufficient education. These advantages translate to the success of all of those late starting runners you mentioned, as well. Some of those great athletes that you concede are recruited for other sports may also be those deciding to run cross country in high school. We should all know that a good athlete can be a very good cross country runner if they try it, so the effect of recruiting here on cross country is indirect but it still has an impact.

The point I make about having intermediate feeder programs goes beyond mentioning a few specific individuals. My point is that you have Intermediate programs at Punahou, Seabury, Iolani, Kamehameha, etc. Public high schools do not have this luxury as they rely on runners coming from schools that they have little or no contact with. It is a much more efficient system that is set up for success in the private schools compared to the public schools.

In the end, I just don't see it being more fair to divide the schools based on size than it would be to divide the schools based on being public or private.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

#60 Post by todaresq » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:49 am

We can go back and forth to prove or disprove one another, but the bottom line is the schools that continue to dominate the sports scene have an active sports program that continues to draw in fresh talent. Whether these runners have been running for years or just starting out in high school, they have been athletes most of their lives. Running is involved in just about every sport, you just have to teach other athletes the techniques and race strategies to make them "distance runners" or "tracksters" and if they've been active/competitive in other sports, all it takes is time before they pick up the sport of "running". What makes private schools dominate so well and this comes from working with both private and public schools is they make athletics a part of their schools program. Public high schools only require students one year of physical education if you can even call it that. Public school athletics seldomly get the support from their physical eduation program. Who cares if private schools have been dominating, someone has too. Competition is what makes everyone get better and if public schools can step up to the challenge like Leilehua in Cross Country or Kahuku and Radford in Track then great. As a whole, we need to figure out how this state can step up to the competition with the rest of the nation. So for those who have struggled to develop their programs, look at what the successful teams have done and maybe it's time to revamp or rethink your approach. See you out on the course or track.

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