Cross Country 2009

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800runner
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by 800runner »

Hzy- I have a few responses to what you wrote. Some agree, some disagree, some are just partial agree/disagree

1. Well of course its obviously unbalanced, everyone sees that (hopefully). People just disagree as to why its unbalanced.

2. Being wealthy has nothing to do with athletic success. While there are notable exceptions such as Kobe Bryant, most professional and collegiate athletes come from middle to lower income families but use athletics to help advance their lives financially.

3. How do you suggest parents of private school students help out? Should they feel obligated to not send their child to private school because there is a problem with public schools? As of right now, there is no way to fix the public school system simply because of financial limitations. Unless you want taxes raised, since there really isn't ways to cut anymore spending without severely harming another state program, the public schools will stay the way they are until the state gets more money to pay teachers more which will then increase the amount of competition and bring better teachers in. Also, people aren't usually born into private school, affluent families. Instead, parents send their kids in 6th, 7th, or 9th grades because they want their kids to have a good education, even if it means sacrifice for parents. Most parents cannot easily send their kids to private school. It often means getting rid of unnecessary expenses, such as only owning one car, taking public transportation (or biking, walking etc.), cutting back on grocery expenses, or taking a second job part-time. I encourage you to eliminate the stereotype that all private school students are very affluent and that their parents just burn money like crazy. If you were to spend a day at a private school, finding how people get to school, you will find that while most get dropped off by their parents, 5% take the bus (or about 75% at Kamehameha), 5% walk, 30% carpool, and the remaining 60% have less than 1 in 5 cars worth over $25,000. While these statistics may have changed in the last 5 years, my sister did an economics class project on this in 2004, spending a morning at Punahou, Iolani, and Kamehameha, logging type and number of cars.

4. I agree with you except that you do not need an affluent neighborhood to have success. Can you identify the neighborhoods with high property values (best way to determine an affluent neighborhood in my opinion) that also have success at state championships?

5. Agreed, I don't see why all islands can't have intermediate leagues for all sports, as long as there would be enough interest.

6. Extracurricular participation is not mandatory at any private school. However, I think what was trying to be said is that you can earn part of your mandatory PE credit through sports at private schools. Also, just because there are numbers does not mean a team will be good. Punahou's two levels of teams, high school and intermediates, run about 80 a week each. However, people do cross country because it is a no-cut sport and in that case, the ability level is no longer normally distributed in the natural "bell-curve" shape. So, they may have 80 people but it isn't 80 people who are dedicated to the sport. If you have ever seen the start of an ILH race, Punahou has a very notable back pack. It is rare in a race to find multiple runners in the top 10 of either varsity or intermediate from Punahou. It is also common for Punahou to have the 20 of the last 25 runners. While there are exceptions (Todd Iacovelli, Peter Deptula), as you may know, one man alone cannot win the team championship. On the other hand, schools can have very small teams but can win championships if the entire team is dedicated towards winning. Running is a sport that you improve dramatically when you have more people pushing you.

7. Why do you automatically assume tuition assistance is recruiting? In the cases of Iolani, Punahou, and Kamehameha (especially Kamehameha), all three schools have such large endowments that they can offer financial aid to qualified students (who may also be athletes). Now, to me it seems as if you live on Maui so you don't know much about Oahu schools. Well, no athletes are recruited for small name sports. It is very much limited to football, basketball, and baseball (and academics- the horror to think that endowments can be used for something other than athletics!) and you don't see many of those athletes trying cross country. While some runners might be on financial aid for academic reasons, the private schools wouldn't waste money on low-profile sports. Lets say hypothetically speaking, you are an athletic director have player A who is outstanding at cross country (potential 4 year varsity, 3 year medalist) versus player B who is above average at football (potential 3 year varsity, 2 year starter), who would you choose considering talent and popularity of sport? Athletic directors would choose the football player.

8. The federally mandated tests are easy enough that anyone with a good amount of classroom time and who works hard to be the best they can be academically. The federal government designed these tests so everyone has potential for passing but must take that potential and develop it, both on their own and in the classroom. I believe the amount of development put in by both the students and the classrooms are insufficient and that is contributing to the low percentage of passing scores. It is not because all the top students attend private school. The government wants all kids to be able to pass, but unfortunately our culture doesn't allow it to work like that. Almost all kids want to be doing something other than homework. Not saying this is what we should do, but more studying has been proven to produce higher scores. In worldwide tests on mathematical and scientific competence, the United States consistently ranks 20th or lower, behind countries such as Switzerland, South Korea, Japan, Israel, and New Zealand Why? Because they spend more time in the classroom and doing homework because it is encouraged by the society around them.

9. All teams are probably working just as hard as each other. However, why wouldn't runner A want to go to private school to get a good education? Then, academically, they are more secure. I'm not sure what you think of it, but for most people attending private school STUDENT takes priority in STUDENT-athlete. They know it is very unlikely they will run professionally (less than .001% of all varsity athletes do) and even still, cross country is not a big money sport. No Olympic event, only small scale at the national and world level. Why not leave themselves with something to lean back on for the future? The amount of talent at private schools exceeding the amount of talent at public comes down to more people wanting a good education.

10. With that mindset, the part of the championship you can control is going to happen the way you expect. Just a few hours ago, the UW football team beat the #3 USC football team, after losing 15 of the previous 16 games. USC had all-Americans and high levels of recruiting. But, the UW team went in with the mindset that they could win. A poor performance by USC led to the upset. What's to say your team can't win because you aren't expected to? Who knows, maybe the top teams will go out in under 5:00 (guys) and under 5:30 (girls) and there will be an upset because your team paced themselves perfectly and ran the race of their lives. Never look down on your team's chances at winning because you aren't the favorite. Best of luck to you and your team.

Mainly my points come down to this: No matter what you may believe, schools (on Oahu anyways) don't recruit. People choose to attend private schools to become better students. Schools offer need-based (not merit-based) to qualified STUDENTS. It is from this that top runners choose to attend private schools. They are really just students who run, not runners who study.

IfYouRun
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by IfYouRun »

What started out as a fun forum for XC athletes and parents to visit to read about each other's accomplishments and what we thought were posts from people who had knowledge, and love, of the sport has turned into a diatribe of public vs. private school systems.
This is getting out of hand and we are ignoring what is important: our athletes, the students, our children, and setting the example of acceptance and good sportsmanship no matter where a child goes to school.
Let's go back to the example Coach Al's blog set, posting comments about individuals, races, standings, courses, and etc. That's what matters to the kids and that is what should matter to the adults.
Time to move on.

run4fun
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by run4fun »

Wow! What a beautiful day a Kualoa and some awesome running. Congratulations to all the runners and thank you Iolani for a great event.

800runner
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by 800runner »

ifyourun-
You're right. Sorry about that. We should get this back on topic. Although I just couldn't resist trying to dispute some of this stuff.

Anyways, on to the Iolani invitational. 4 divisions and 2 genders run today, Varsity (3 miles, max 7 runners), Open (3 miles, max 10 runners), Unlimited (anyone could enter including parents and coaches, 2miles, mixed race), and Intermediate (2miles) Fairly warm day today, not a whole lot of wind. Course was running about 300m short, causing times to be 50+ seconds faster than on a regular 3 mile course. Mostly flat, one hill about 200m long heading up, about 100-150ft elevation gain. Course I believe was switched at the last moment (possibly because of hazards?) so the course ended up not going up this one part of a hill. No official results posted online as of 9:50 9/19/09. However, I do know that Margarito Martinez of Leilehua came in second place overall, first Hawaii, in about 15:25. Hailey Grossman of Seabury hall was first Hawaii girl, I didn't catch her time. I also believe that the Kamehameha Boys and Punahou girls were the first place teams from Hawaii. Dana Hills (CA) girls looked strong today and I am pretty sure that they won, taking several of the top spots.

The meet was well organized and well staffed--thanks Iolani Parents! My only disappointment is that the course ran short, but it was our first glimpse of some of the OIA running against the ILH. Should be an exciting season.

run because you can
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by run because you can »

xcfan wrote:Anybody know the results from the Iolani Invitational meet today?
http://www.dyestatcal.com/?pg=dyestatca ... -19-Iolani

xcfan
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by xcfan »

The Iolani Invitational course at Kualoa has in the past been hazardous to some of the Hawaii runners. I think this is due to the fact that most of our CC courses are not that techinical(rugged) and the runners do not have much practice running on rough trails. It sounds like they did adjust the course to eliminate the most hazrdous downhill section of the old course. However, I understand that some runners did fall again this year.
The showdown between the OIA and ILH was incomplete, especially in the girls varsity without the appearance of Mililani. A good portion of the Mililani teams partcipated in todays Nike 5K where both the boys and girls did very well.
Next weeks Kaiser Invitational at the CORP course should have all the top Oahu teams and individuals competing.
I totally agree with IfYouRun, lets follow the competition and appreciate the pursuit of excellence no matter what school the athletes are representing. Running is one of the few arenas where everyone is given the exact same opportunity to succeed.

hzy
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by hzy »

Can someone tell me if there is somewhere that you can find a map for the Kaiser Invite next week? Found one on the Mililani site but it's from 2006. Is the course the same as then or different. Thanks

800runner
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by 800runner »

hzy-
This course map right?
http://www.geocities.com/milhsxc/Maps/C ... huPark.jpg
I believe the course will be the same as it has been the last few years (Kaiser Invite, OIA and ILH champs have been run there the past few years, States in 06) However, the map is not very clear as to how it is run. As you can see, it is essentially 2 and a half loops, following the letters BCDE. However, if I remember correctly the yellow section on the bottom left corner is only run on the first loop, while it turns around at the bus stop in the second and half loops. They needed to extend the course from the original.

Hope it helps

hzy
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by hzy »

800runner-

That is the same map I found so thanks for confirming it is still the same course. It took me a second but I did figure out the direction of the course, though I wasn't clear about that yellow loop so thanks for clearing that up too.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by hzy »

FYI everybody:

Furlough days were just released and October 30 is one of them. Not sure how this will affect the State Meet, but stay tuned. I will do my best to provide updates as I can.

xcfan
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by xcfan »

The State meet on Kauai has been rescheduled for Saturday 10-31-09 according to the HHSA.

hzy
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by hzy »

Thought that might be the solution. Thanks xcfan

mauioutlaw
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by mauioutlaw »

Just a few observations:

IfYouRun, depending on your definition, I don't think the Public versus Private discourse was a diatribe but a discussion with some opposing views. I think it was something to fill the forum in between races. In any case it gave everyone something to think about. There should be more discussions on anything that affects the sport, we can all learn from others views.

800Runner, thanks for your description of the Iolani Invitational. I was wondering why the times had all of a sudden decreased.

If anyone can post 'almost' real-time results from the upcoming Kaiser Invitational I'm sure everyone from the neighbor islands will appreciate it.

Hzy and xcfan, thanks for the information about States.

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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by Waipi'o Lookout »

I agree with mauioutlaw. It's OK to have disagreement as long as it's civil. Private vs. public is a relevant topic IMHO.

RunJonPaulAMPM
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Re: Cross Country 2009

Post by RunJonPaulAMPM »

It's true that hard work and good coaching contributes to a successful cross country program. But if someone can bring in a team of top athletes from the mainland or Europe, it doesn't matter how hard you work or what kind of program you are running as a coach. There's an old saying, "I'd rather be lucky, than good." If a public school were able to luck into having enough talented athletes on one team, they would certainly succeed over a better coached private school team. The fact is, that private schools have a larger pool of athletes to select from, whether it is because they have students from throughout the state, or larger participation because of feeder school programs and school credit for participation. There are several years when we would look at some private schools "B" squads, and think about what a decent team we could make out of them. Public schools sometimes don't have enough participation to field a full team. There are some years where we hear from the PE teachers about some amazing kids in their class, but they never come out for the sport, due to whatever obligations or reasons. In private schools, running in the sport would be their PE requirement. A lot of public school coaches aren't on the teaching staff, since the coaching salary isn't worth their time, so a lot of the coaches work outside of the school and don't have the time or opportunity to find athletes inside their own school. Because of these handicaps, hard work and good coaching aren't able to counteract the quality of athletes derived from the sheer number the private schools are able to choose from. If someone is sick, injured or graduates, they have someone of equal quality waiting in the wings.

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