Cross Country 2009
Re: Cross Country 2009
Are there usually mainland teams that come to this Saturday's Honolulu Marathon/Kaiser Invite? What about Neighbor Island schools?
Re: Cross Country 2009
I agree wiith Hzy. There should be two divisions, one private school, and one public.
The missions of private schools and public schools have become different. The resources are different, and by and large, even the schedules are different. Moreover, with the current economic situation, public schools simply will have to make do with less resources. But, that's not a concern of private schools - at least not to the degree experienced by public schools. It would be unfair to private school students if participation had to be cut back to account for public schools' resources or scheduling or collective bargaining circumstances. Those are, after all, consequences private school parents seek and pay to avoid by sending their kids to private school.
One way to simply stop the hating going both ways between private and public schools is to simply divide and separate the two when it comes to sports. It has already occurred in just about every other aspect, might as well be complete.
I encourage private schools to adopt what Hzy says. Private School State Championships, and separate Public School State Championships - in all sports. Public schools will no longer have to worry about competing against "recruitied " kids, and private schools won't be subject to the Public schools' ability to do things like put 4 OIA teams from Oahu in the footlball State Championships.
Plus, more kids will be able to say they're State Champions. Just do it already. The current system leads to too much negativity.
The missions of private schools and public schools have become different. The resources are different, and by and large, even the schedules are different. Moreover, with the current economic situation, public schools simply will have to make do with less resources. But, that's not a concern of private schools - at least not to the degree experienced by public schools. It would be unfair to private school students if participation had to be cut back to account for public schools' resources or scheduling or collective bargaining circumstances. Those are, after all, consequences private school parents seek and pay to avoid by sending their kids to private school.
One way to simply stop the hating going both ways between private and public schools is to simply divide and separate the two when it comes to sports. It has already occurred in just about every other aspect, might as well be complete.
I encourage private schools to adopt what Hzy says. Private School State Championships, and separate Public School State Championships - in all sports. Public schools will no longer have to worry about competing against "recruitied " kids, and private schools won't be subject to the Public schools' ability to do things like put 4 OIA teams from Oahu in the footlball State Championships.
Plus, more kids will be able to say they're State Champions. Just do it already. The current system leads to too much negativity.
Re: Cross Country 2009
thats ridiculous. "more kids would be able to say they are state champions"?! we want to compete against the very best in the WHOLE STATE.
Re: Cross Country 2009
[quote="HIway"]thats ridiculous. "more kids would be able to say they are state champions"?! we want to compete against the very best in the WHOLE STATE.[/quote]
hzy doesn't.
hzy doesn't.
Re: Cross Country 2009
Hey bungahead: Speak to me, not for me.bungahead wrote:HIway wrote:thats ridiculous. "more kids would be able to say they are state champions"?! we want to compete against the very best in the WHOLE STATE.
hzy doesn't.
All I pointed out was discrepancies between private and public schools. My point from the beginning was that if there are divisions that are created in Cross Country, basing it on school size is no more fair than basing it on public and private. I would want to compete against the best, but I am questioning whether the playing field is equal so that public schools have an equal chance at being the best as the private schools.
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Re: Cross Country 2009
Cross country really just boils down to each runner. Individuals get scholarships not teams. Teams make it fun, but when you're running you're running for one reason..."you". Who cares about the school.There is only one state champion runner each year. That's what colleges look at. "Who is #1?"..
hzy wrote:Hey bungahead: Speak to me, not for me.bungahead wrote:HIway wrote:thats ridiculous. "more kids would be able to say they are state champions"?! we want to compete against the very best in the WHOLE STATE.
hzy doesn't.
All I pointed out was discrepancies between private and public schools. My point from the beginning was that if there are divisions that are created in Cross Country, basing it on school size is no more fair than basing it on public and private. I would want to compete against the best, but I am questioning whether the playing field is equal so that public schools have an equal chance at being the best as the private schools.
Re: Cross Country 2009
[quote="hzy"]This idea about needing two divisions for cross country based on school size has been brought up before and I fully disagree with the arguments for it. If anything, there should be two divisions based on whether a school is public or private. For starters, the ability to recruit individuals before they get to the high school level allows private schools to develop a feeder system of talented runners they have identified. As long as those students start their high school years at that private school they are allowed to attend their regardless of where they live, without needing a geographic exemption or worrying about transfer rules. Schools like Seabury Hall may be smaller than others like Punahou, but Seabury still has the luxury of being able to identify talent, recruit it, and then offer that person financial aid to attend their school and help their program. This ability can help a school gain depth regardless of its size. The fact that Seabury was able to lose 2 of their top runners during the State Meet last year and still take second shows that it is an invalid argument to say they can't have depth because the school is too small.
Another reason I disagree with divisions based solely on school size is because of the number of team titles in both Cross Country and Track and Field that have been won by private schools, with Punahou leading the way. Looking back at the history of state champions in Hawaii, why haven't public schools with high enrollment numbers won state championships more regularly? Leilehua is the first public school to win a state title in boys Cross Country in 20 years, and on the girls side it's been nearly 30 years since a public school won a state championship! I don't want to assume an elitist attitude for those that don't see this as a problem, but how can these facts be ignored?
There has got to be changes to the enrollment and transfer rules as it pertains to private schools, or public and private schools need to be placed into different divisions.[/quote]
Another reason I disagree with divisions based solely on school size is because of the number of team titles in both Cross Country and Track and Field that have been won by private schools, with Punahou leading the way. Looking back at the history of state champions in Hawaii, why haven't public schools with high enrollment numbers won state championships more regularly? Leilehua is the first public school to win a state title in boys Cross Country in 20 years, and on the girls side it's been nearly 30 years since a public school won a state championship! I don't want to assume an elitist attitude for those that don't see this as a problem, but how can these facts be ignored?
There has got to be changes to the enrollment and transfer rules as it pertains to private schools, or public and private schools need to be placed into different divisions.[/quote]
Re: Cross Country 2009
Thanks for quoting me bungahead, now let me quote myself:
"Good points, todaresq. I have to admit I stand corrected in that maybe the public schools are the ones that need to change, not the private schools. There needs to be santctioned sports programs at the intermediate level, with league competition that encourages more participation. If this were the case I think it would go a long way to increase the competition between public and private schools. Most states have established middle school athletic programs that gets kids involved in sports at a much younger age. Like run4fun said, this is not only great from a competitive stand point, but more importantly it encourages kids to live a healthy lifestyle. This would greatly increase the chances of them becoming healthy adults."
While I recognize inequalities between public and private schools, I also see where public schools do have an opportunity to improve their programs. After this topic had been debated further, I was able to see I cannot be so definitive in my conclusion on the issue regarding changes needing to be made. I was simply counteracting the argument being made that divisions be created based on school size, and I overextended my initial argument against this idea.
"Good points, todaresq. I have to admit I stand corrected in that maybe the public schools are the ones that need to change, not the private schools. There needs to be santctioned sports programs at the intermediate level, with league competition that encourages more participation. If this were the case I think it would go a long way to increase the competition between public and private schools. Most states have established middle school athletic programs that gets kids involved in sports at a much younger age. Like run4fun said, this is not only great from a competitive stand point, but more importantly it encourages kids to live a healthy lifestyle. This would greatly increase the chances of them becoming healthy adults."
While I recognize inequalities between public and private schools, I also see where public schools do have an opportunity to improve their programs. After this topic had been debated further, I was able to see I cannot be so definitive in my conclusion on the issue regarding changes needing to be made. I was simply counteracting the argument being made that divisions be created based on school size, and I overextended my initial argument against this idea.
Re: Cross Country 2009
[quote="hzy"]Thanks for quoting me bungahead, now let me quote myself:
. . ..
.[/quote]
So, you don't think public and private schools should be put in separate divisions anymore?
. . ..
.[/quote]
So, you don't think public and private schools should be put in separate divisions anymore?
Re: Cross Country 2009
[quote="hzy"]Thanks for quoting me bungahead, now let me quote myself:
"Good points, todaresq. I have to admit I stand corrected in that maybe the public schools are the ones that need to change, not the private schools. There needs to be santctioned sports programs at the intermediate level, with league competition that encourages more participation. If this were the case I think it would go a long way to increase the competition between public and private schools. Most states have established middle school athletic programs that gets kids involved in sports at a much younger age. Like run4fun said, this is not only great from a competitive stand point, but more importantly it encourages kids to live a healthy lifestyle. This would greatly increase the chances of them becoming healthy adults."
While I recognize inequalities between public and private schools, I also see where public schools do have an opportunity to improve their programs. After this topic had been debated further, I was able to see I cannot be so definitive in my conclusion on the issue regarding changes needing to be made. I was simply counteracting the argument being made that divisions be created based on school size, and I overextended my initial argument against this idea.[/quote]
Also, you might want to contact Kawananakoa Middle School on Oahu. I understand they have an organized cross country program that is active right now. I'm aware that a couple of weeks ago, they took a contingent that included 7th graders to participate in a meet sponsored by Campbell HS. I don't know in what "official" capacity it exists, operates, is school sanctioned or funded, but my impression is that it is well populated.
"Good points, todaresq. I have to admit I stand corrected in that maybe the public schools are the ones that need to change, not the private schools. There needs to be santctioned sports programs at the intermediate level, with league competition that encourages more participation. If this were the case I think it would go a long way to increase the competition between public and private schools. Most states have established middle school athletic programs that gets kids involved in sports at a much younger age. Like run4fun said, this is not only great from a competitive stand point, but more importantly it encourages kids to live a healthy lifestyle. This would greatly increase the chances of them becoming healthy adults."
While I recognize inequalities between public and private schools, I also see where public schools do have an opportunity to improve their programs. After this topic had been debated further, I was able to see I cannot be so definitive in my conclusion on the issue regarding changes needing to be made. I was simply counteracting the argument being made that divisions be created based on school size, and I overextended my initial argument against this idea.[/quote]
Also, you might want to contact Kawananakoa Middle School on Oahu. I understand they have an organized cross country program that is active right now. I'm aware that a couple of weeks ago, they took a contingent that included 7th graders to participate in a meet sponsored by Campbell HS. I don't know in what "official" capacity it exists, operates, is school sanctioned or funded, but my impression is that it is well populated.
Re: Cross Country 2009
bungahead, what do you want?
I no longer believe that separating public and private schools into separate divisions is the only solution, but I still see that there are obvious discrepancies between the two. I have no solutions and I now see that there may be none, especially solutions as simple as creating divisions.
I no longer believe that separating public and private schools into separate divisions is the only solution, but I still see that there are obvious discrepancies between the two. I have no solutions and I now see that there may be none, especially solutions as simple as creating divisions.
Re: Cross Country 2009
[quote="hzy"]bungahead, what do you want?
I no longer believe that separating public and private schools into separate divisions is the only solution, but I still see that there are obvious discrepancies between the two. I have no solutions and I now see that there may be none, especially solutions as simple as creating divisions.[/quote]
OK, whatever. But, just know that when I came across your post of 10 days ago, when you DID believe that separating public and private schools was the solution and expressly wrote that (without ever expressly disavowing it), I agreed with you, said so then, and have said so since.
What I would appreciate (euphemism for "want") is that you not ever accuse me of "falsely represent(ing)" your stance on an issue unless you are actually correct in doing so.
I no longer believe that separating public and private schools into separate divisions is the only solution, but I still see that there are obvious discrepancies between the two. I have no solutions and I now see that there may be none, especially solutions as simple as creating divisions.[/quote]
OK, whatever. But, just know that when I came across your post of 10 days ago, when you DID believe that separating public and private schools was the solution and expressly wrote that (without ever expressly disavowing it), I agreed with you, said so then, and have said so since.
What I would appreciate (euphemism for "want") is that you not ever accuse me of "falsely represent(ing)" your stance on an issue unless you are actually correct in doing so.
Re: Cross Country 2009
bungahead, if you agreed with me, then why did you have to call me out when HIway questioned what YOU had written? Why couldn't you have defended yourself initially since your argument about state championships was questioned, and HIway said nothing about me? Time for ME to move on. Please don't mention me again unless you want to talk to me directly, not if you want to throw me under the bus.
Re: Cross Country 2009
[quote="hzy"]bungahead, if you agreed with me, then why did you have to call me out when HIway questioned what YOU had written? [/quote]
. . . uuuuum . . . I thought that by invoking you . . .that HIway would be totally intimidated. . .
. . . uuuuum . . . I thought that by invoking you . . .that HIway would be totally intimidated. . .
Re: Cross Country 2009
im really tired of reading all this stuff about private vs public. i want to read about my competetitors, upcoming races, states courses, yada yada yada. i dont want to read bungahead's and hzy's immature arguement about who can quote who.