5-2

BKWarrior · Post by **BKWarrior** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:33 am

Here's a question I have, I'm lookin at Coach Ken, and Mainevent, cause they seem to know where the answers and web-sites are, but anyone that's knows can answer.
The 5-2. It's a defens I loved using in past NCAA football games. My questions are
Is there any team that uses and has success with a TRUE 5-2, and would you use 3 DTs or could you use 3 DEs (to cross as the blitz from one side) or does it trully use a LB at one of the ends?
Why would this d be most and least effective?

I'm gonna look some stuff up(I'm not lazy, but classes have started up again!) but if I can't find it, answers would be appreciated! Mahalo

wyokie · Post by **wyokie** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:14 am

Not an answer, BK, but my alma mater Putnam City North won the State 5A Championship with a 5-2 Defense. The Panthers went 14-0 and placed # 9 in the nation that year.

BTW, no team had ever lost the state championship in OK with a 5-2 defense!!!

themainevent · Post by **themainevent** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:32 am

BKWarrior wrote:Here's a question I have, I'm lookin at Coach Ken, and Mainevent, cause they seem to know where the answers and web-sites are, but anyone that's knows can answer.
The 5-2. It's a defens I loved using in past NCAA football games. My questions are
Is there any team that uses and has success with a TRUE 5-2, and would you use 3 DTs or could you use 3 DEs (to cross as the blitz from one side) or does it trully use a LB at one of the ends?
Why would this d be most and least effective?

I'm gonna look some stuff up(I'm not lazy, but classes have started up again!) but if I can't find it, answers would be appreciated! Mahalo

I don't know of any major Div. I or even I-AA team that runs with a true 5-2 D. Maybe some Div. II or III teams or some NAIA teams do in leagues where they play against severe run-heavy teams. In the lower collegiate divisions, you see a lot more running teams because they lack the skill players to go 3 or 4 wide and spread the ball around through the air. In high school many teams use the 5-2 because many teams tend to run the option or a power running game. At those levels listed above, it's easier to put and find a good athlete with speed at QB than to find one who is proficient at throwing the ball consistently.

From what I've seen and read, most teams run a 5-2 like they would a 4-3 that has either the SAM or WILL creep up to the line of scrimmage. In that sense, only 4 of the 5 down lineman will engage with the offensive line and the 5th defensive lineman will be used to rush off the end, man up, or drop into zone. It would be most effective against option or power running teams because this D is very effective at shutting down the middle of the field. You would force the running game to go sideline to sideline where you can then cheat up your safeties and use the sideline as another defender. If you have good atheletes at both DE positions, you can then run multiple zone blitzes of this D rushing your 3 DTs and LBs and dropping the DEs into coverage. If you play in a league where say, 8 out of 10 teams run the ball 60%+ out of the time, this may be a good D to run. Ideally, your 3 DTs would be big, stout, guys who can plug up the middle of the field and stop the run. They wouldn't really have to be pass rushers. You would ideally like one of the DEs to be a bigger guy who can engage the OLine and stop the run. The other DE could be a faster, athletic type guy who would be asked to rush the QB, possibly man up against the TE, and be able to drop back into zone coverage (like a Travis LaBoy). For the secondary, you would need good cover guys at your CB positions because with a 5-2, you will be running mostly man coverage. The CBs will be more on an island than they would with a 4-3 or 3-4. At least one of the safeties must be a good pass defender because you'll be playing vs. the run in most downs. Because of that, whichever safety has the TE, WB, or SB must be able to cover on a pass or PA play.

BKWarrior · Post by **BKWarrior** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:13 pm

Thanks Mainevent. I figured the SEC would've had some teams using the formation, because it used to be such a run-heavy confrence (same with the old Big Ten, and to some degree the Big 12 (or was it he Big 7? 9? I forget)
Great response again, thanks

wyokie · Post by **wyokie** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:17 pm

BKWarrior wrote:Thanks Mainevent. I figured the SEC would've had some teams using the formation, because it used to be such a run-heavy confrence (same with the old Big Ten, and to some degree the Big 12 (or was it he Big 7? 9? I forget)

You're thinking of the Big 8 Conference (current Big 12 North Division plus Oklahoma and Oklahoma). The Big 8 was around from 1960-1995.

CoachKen · Post by **CoachKen** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:10 pm

Sorry I missed this post, I usually go straight to the UH football forum.

I agree with Mainevent, I am not aware of any D1's that run the 5-2, which is a good defense against option, terrible against passing teams and requires your LB's to cover a lot of ground. It does not give you many options on blitz packages and it voids consistent coverage in the curl/hook zones. The college 4-3 can be diverse, allows for more speed movement on the field and will sometimes resemble a 5-2 when you walk up the strong side backer. Also as defensive linemen have gotten bigger, gap control that can free up LB's has become important. The LB's have to be able to run (4.6 or better to be an SEC LB). With three LB's the options are unlimited and it allows you more speed on the field.

wyokie · Post by **wyokie** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:16 pm

Coach,

Why is the 5-2 so popular at the high school level? If you read my earlier post on this thread, my alma mater ran the 5-2 the year we took STATE!!!

CoachKen · Post by **CoachKen** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:37 am

Actually, in some states the 5-2 is not that popular. We never saw a 5-2 this whole year out of 15 games. Most high school's have gone to a 4-3 look, multiple fronts and a mixture of split 4-4 and a little Stack 3.

BKWarrior · Post by **BKWarrior** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:12 am

I wonder if it would be wise in the redzone. Most teams run, so that would help. The LBs would be able to spread out more, because the 5 DLs would negate a run up the gut, so you'd have 5 DL to stop the run, 2 LBs to run to the sides, and yous DBs covering. Less space to move means less space you have to cover. Not on the goaline, but inside the 20.
I would like to see how effective it could be.
I'm still looking up to see who invented the 5-2 and where.

BKWarrior · Post by **BKWarrior** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:14 am

I also wonder, based on Coach Ken and Mainevent's wonderful assesments, if the formation would've saved us against teams like SMU and Rice?

themainevent · Post by **themainevent** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:00 am

CoachKen wrote:Actually, in some states the 5-2 is not that popular. We never saw a 5-2 this whole year out of 15 games. Most high school's have gone to a 4-3 look, multiple fronts and a mixture of split 4-4 and a little Stack 3.

I agree. Most high school teams that I've seen go to a 4-4 against the run. Gives you more speed. However, I think St. Louis used to run a 5-2 as their base, or maybe it was a 4-3 hybrid. I'm pretty sure they ran a 5-2 though.

themainevent · Post by **themainevent** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:06 am

BKWarrior wrote:I also wonder, based on Coach Ken and Mainevent's wonderful assesments, if the formation would've saved us against teams like SMU and Rice?

I don't think so, because with the exception of Pisa, we haven't had the linebackers necessary to run a 5-2. Also your interior defensive lineman have to be solid across the board because you only have two linebackers covering the entire field. Ideally, they can collapse the middle which either forces the runner to bounce outside towards a tackler or they stop the inside run for a minimal gain. If the DLine is consistently getting lit up at the line of scrimmage, it doesn't really matter what defense you run at that point.

Coach Ken, ideally what is your favorite D that you would run? Personally, I like the 4-2-5 or a 4-3 hybrid with a rover.

BKWarrior · Post by **BKWarrior** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:56 am

I would like to know too. personally, I like the 4-4 most, because many of our lbs have saftey speed, maybe it would help our run-defense. Problem is the one saftey (with our CBs bein burnt soo much)

CoachKen · Post by **CoachKen** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:52 pm

I'm going to give you a strange answer on my favorite defense...it is...whatever fits the personnel! In my coaching career I have run the 6-2, the Oklahoma 5-2, 4-4, split 4-4, 4-3 college vs pro, and the stack 3-3 that Mississippi State use to run and Memphis now runs. If I have a two gap down player (a guy who plays head up and has to be blocked by two linemen, I would run a 3-3 stack (if the other team can pass) or a 5-2 (if they are average at the pass). The 3-3 allows you to have three mobile backers and two "edge" players (strong safety types that can play run or give you a five defensive back look. The only thing about the stack 3-3 is you are always slanting or dealing (Jerry Glanville style) and it can give up a big play. If I don't have the exceptional nose guard who can control 2 gaps, but I had a huge MLB who was not mobile but tough, I might consider a 4-3. If I had the personnel to do whatever I wanted I would run multiple fronts all based off the 4-3 to give a 5-2 look at times by walking up the Sam Backer, run over and under (overshift and undershift) and I would run tendency stunts, blitzes, and combo's. The 4-3 is very versatile. My second choice would be the 4-4 to get seven in coverage, but still have eight near the line. The 4-4 is the defense of choice if you are stunt and blitz happy!

On the youth level, teams do not throw very well and you can get away with what I call a gap defense. Put simply, fill every gap with a low charge. I have at times been in a Seven Diamond (seven down and one middle LB) and slanted the entire line. You could not do this on the high school or college level.

I can get carried away on this...you guys have hit my hot button!

Coach

BKWarrior · Post by **BKWarrior** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:42 pm

6-2?

WOW, never herda that one! That sounds dangerous to run. Would the dbs be in zone? I would imagine not, though.
I think with our defense, the 3-4 is good, but the problem is, we have soo many talented DEs, and I don't know how they would do in that formation. I guess I'm lookin at the number of sacks our DEs had. A 4-4 might work for us. We have soo many fast, skilled LBs and some tough, yet fast ILBs that I think we should maximise our LB talents, but not give up the line of scrimmage by runnin with only 3 DLs. Ofcourse, I'm no coach, so I don't know, I'm kinda thinkin outloud here.
Bottom line, I'd like to see us run a 4-4, cause I think LP could handle it (bein the only saftey out there) and we'd probably end up doin better against the run.(Plus one LB could be like a nickle back)

DEs Purcell bros, or Mel and Alama-Francis(or Veikune)
DTs Savaiiega (sp?) and...Watson? Laile(sp?)

LBs--ah yeah
OLB---Satele, RJ or Blaze (if he's in and can "get" the defense
ILB---Elimimian Leonard(he's a ILB right?)
Cb---Uh, yeah, what ever frosh we get and maybe Patton(though he's a WR now yeah?)
S-LP(with Alexander spellin him)

Now that I look at what I wrote, 3 DLs are, maybe, best! Are our DTs good enough?

I just confused myself, I don't know what I want!

5-2

5-2

Re: 5-2