Is Farve among the greatest.........

lewpac · Post by **lewpac** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:57 pm

I want to throw this out there amongst informed fans I know contribute to this forum.......
An empolyee of mine moved here from Wisconsin about a year ago, and all you hear is Brett Farve this and Brett Farve that from this guy. He counts him not only among the all time greats to ever play the game, but indeed perhaps the greatest ever. My take is "not so fast.........."
I completely understand his bent, because in those parts Green Bay football is akin to the National Anthem and the American Flag. That's all they know and all they want to know. I understand his extreme bias and love affair he has with this guy.
I love Farve too. Wished he played in Dallas all these years. His lore will remain for being "Ripkin-esque" as an ironman. When he retires and when he makes the hall of fame, the adjectives will flow and, in my opinion, be way overblown. Nonetheless, I like him because he's a blue-collar/good 'ole boy who brings his lunch pail to work every day. The NFL needs more like him.
But I really believe he's not even in the top ten ever for the following reasons. Again, no disrespect:
1. Played in Green Bay. The frozen tundra, Lambeau feild, Vince Lambardi, etc......... Legendary status follows any succuss up there. It's good for the NFL when Green Bay is good. Like Notre Dame in NCAA ball. Makes everyone feel warm and fuzy inside. His stock is 30-50% higher because of WHERE he played.
2. Has a ring. The key word here is "A", as in one. That's wonderfull, deserves alot of credit. But Dilfer has "a" ring, so does Rypien, so does Jim McMahon. The all-time greats have two or more, and a much longer run at the playoffs and playoff wins than Farve. I haven't done the reasearch, but Brady may have more playoff wins than Farve.
3. Began his career (several years) and appears to be ending his career wild. This guy will throw it up for grabs more than anyone I've ever seen trying to salvage a play or make a play. Drove Holmgren crazy for a couple years and had to be re-trained with a cattle prod to cut it out. Seems to be regressing back to his rookie and younger days.
4. His career is ending on a very bad slide. Blame the franchise, blame the team, injuries, etc........all that will be forgotten when the story of Farve is told years from now. Didn't go out a winner, team in the draft lottery, etc.........
5. Whines and complains a little. Has a reputation for self-egrandisement, likes the mic and the cameras, likes a little pity for all his personal problems, makes them public. Taints him a little bit as perhaps self-absorbed.

A darn good one? Without a doubt. Want him on your team? Absolutly!!
Team player? Probably. Loyal? Alright, OK with me. All time great, amongst the greatest to ever play the position, in the top 5, the top 10...................no way!

Post by **Scott** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:13 pm

I think he would be in my top 10 greatest QB's. My top 10 looks something like this one which tells you what the QB's record was in big games.
Joe Montana is my #1 too

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/2004playoffsQB.html

lou909 · Post by **lou909** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:17 pm

Scott wrote:I think he would be in my top 10 greatest QB's. My top 10 looks something like this one which tells you what the QB's record was in big games.
Joe Montana is my #1 too

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/2004playoffsQB.html

i think Brady should be on that list you got there scott.... i would put him ahead of aikman... see aikman had more stars around him than brady and brady has just as much rings and maybe even more to come.....

lewpac · Post by **lewpac** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:01 pm

Wait just a minute now.............
The anti-Cowboy (as in anti-Yankee, anti-Celtic, anti-Jeff Gordon) slant is in play here............
You never here praise of Aikman, E. Smith or Micheal Irvin without the obligatory "well, anyone could've passed behind that line and with that running game", and the "well, any running back could've had those numbers with that line and that passing game, and the "well, any reciever could've been the Playmaker with that running game". The final insult is "with that defense, any offense could've put up numers".
You NEVER hear this mularky about the Whiners in their heyday. When most talk of the Whiners, it's as if the Lord Jesus Christ himself came down and developed and ran the offense. All credit and glory is given to all that participated, from the players on up to the coaching staff to the franchise.
One could take everything Montana did and chalk it up to the system and the players around him. I'll gauran-darn-tee you if he played for Dallas all those years he wouldn't be quite the legend he is today. They'd have chalked all his success up to the system, his running back, his offensive line and his recievers. Because God-forbid a Cowboy is ranked one of the best ever. Hell, even after E. Smith accomplished the ultimate record of most yards ever, all kinds of anectdotes and excuses were made for him having getting the record. Everything from Barry Sanders retirement to ANYONE could've done that with THAT offense and line. I remember when they were calling Emmit done in '95! Bottom line for my argument is two fold:
1. Ed Debartalo is a convicted felon. The Niners owner convicted of mafia type crimes, and all you here is "Well, Mr. Debartalo needs all our prayers during this difficult and unfortunate time in his life. The entire Forty-Niner family, his personal family, and the entire San Francisco community wish him the best in his time of need". Put Jerry Jones in that same scenario and see what happens!! He'd be swinging from the highest tree without so much as a trial.
2. Deionne Sanders. One year, he's the media darling, NFC defensive player of the year, and everyones sweetheart and soundbight of all the NFL has to offer. The Poster Boy for the modern NFL, emulated and celebrated by every NFL fan and promoter, everything that's great about the game. The very next year, he's a cocky black kid who won't tackle, a big mouth brash necklace and earing wearing overpaid pampered corner, everything wrong with the game. His kind is ruining our game and we detest his cocky attitude and money grabbing, all-about-me persona.
What changed.......? He played for the Niners that one year, and God forbid played for the Cowboys the next.

Anybody want to prove me wrong???

LocalCheesehead · Post by **LocalCheesehead** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:02 pm

First of all, it's spelled FAVRE. Secondly, he's the only quarterback to win the NFL MVP award three times...definitely top ten!

lewpac · Post by **lewpac** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:08 pm

MVP awards are like MLB's all star teams. It's selectively relative and given to opinion. Super Bowl rings and championships are not.
I stand by my dissertation. One ring is wonderfull, a decent run is admirable. But great................I'm afraid not.

lou909 · Post by **lou909** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:09 pm

lewpac wrote:Wait just a minute now.............
The anti-Cowboy (as in anti-Yankee, anti-Celtic, anti-Jeff Gordon) slant is in play here............
You never here praise of Aikman, E. Smith or Micheal Irvin without the obligatory "well, anyone could've passed behind that line and with that running game", and the "well, any running back could've had those numbers with that line and that passing game, and the "well, any reciever could've been the Playmaker with that running game". The final insult is "with that defense, any offense could've put up numers".
You NEVER hear this mularky about the Whiners in their heyday. When most talk of the Whiners, it's as if the Lord Jesus Christ himself came down and developed and ran the offense. All credit and glory is given to all that participated, from the players on up to the coaching staff to the franchise.
One could take everything Montana did and chalk it up to the system and the players around him. I'll gauran-darn-tee you if he played for Dallas all those years he wouldn't be quite the legend he is today. They'd have chalked all his success up to the system, his running back, his offensive line and his recievers. Because God-forbid a Cowboy is ranked one of the best ever. Hell, even after E. Smith accomplished the ultimate record of most yards ever, all kinds of anectdotes and excuses were made for him having getting the record. Everything from Barry Sanders retirement to ANYONE could've done that with THAT offense and line. I remember when they were calling Emmit done in '95! Bottom line for my argument is two fold:
1. Ed Debartalo is a convicted felon. The Niners owner convicted of mafia type crimes, and all you here is "Well, Mr. Debartalo needs all our prayers during this difficult and unfortunate time in his life. The entire Forty-Niner family, his personal family, and the entire San Francisco community wish him the best in his time of need". Put Jerry Jones in that same scenario and see what happens!! He'd be swinging from the highest tree without so much as a trial.
2. Deionne Sanders. One year, he's the media darling, NFC defensive player of the year, and everyones sweetheart and soundbight of all the NFL has to offer. The Poster Boy for the modern NFL, emulated and celebrated by every NFL fan and promoter, everything that's great about the game. The very next year, he's a cocky black kid who won't tackle, a big mouth brash necklace and earing wearing overpaid pampered corner, everything wrong with the game. His kind is ruining our game and we detest his cocky attitude and money grabbing, all-about-me persona.
What changed.......? He played for the Niners that one year, and God forbid played for the Cowboys the next.

Anybody want to prove me wrong???

uhh let me guess.... you hate the niners and your backing up aikman.... you must be a giants fan........ $\:D/$

LocalCheesehead · Post by **LocalCheesehead** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:18 pm

Let me rephrase...He's the ONLY NFL PLAYER IN HISTORY to win the MVP award 3 times...in a row no less!

Favre ranks third all time in the league's four MAJOR catergories; second in touchdownsm (376), second in completions (4,306), third in attempts (7,003) and third in yards (49,734). Majority of these stats were produced in freezing weather, not in a dome.

Sounds like top ten to me!!!

lewpac · Post by **lewpac** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:44 pm

Let me re-dunk..........
One Ring, ala Dilpher, Rypien, Brad Johnson, Theisman, et al...........
Season ending voted-upon rewards are like the Academy Awards.........
Depends upon whats pleasing to the voter, highly relative, personal favorites, depends upon style............
Like I say, if Jim McMahon ended up in Green Bay with ONE ring, he'd be a legend. Good run, nice guy, fan favorite, quirky personality, original guy, got numbers, blah, blah, balh............
One of the greats? Ah............
Alright, you defend the following......
Unitas
Montana
Elway
Steve Young (at least equal)
Graham
Starr
Aikman
Marino
Brady
Staubach
Bradshaw
Stabler
Namath
Plunkett
Simms....
To name a few...........you want to talk Favre (Farve, Faver, Farte, whatever) against any of these guys?
Got the numbers, that's for sure. So did Marino, Tarkenton, whatever.....
Got one ring and lost in the very important and career defining second in a row championship. You know, as in Starr, Greise, Bradshaw, Aikman, Montano, Brady, etc..........Farve is the ONLY QB beside's that Rams idiot to loose his consecutive Super Bowl game after a win. You gotta' win that one to be great. Favor (or whatever) lost in his repeat attempt, unheard of!!
So, as I slammed dunked before: Good? Yeah, Want him on my team? For sure. Clutch guy? At times. Franchise QB? All day. All time great? Uh, don't measure up!!

LocalCheesehead · Post by **LocalCheesehead** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:06 pm

Okay, so your basing everything on the "one ring only" theory. Well, for your information, 5 of the quaretrbacks in your all time list only have ONE RING; Joe Namath, Johnny Unitas, Ken Stabler, Steve Young, and Phil Simms. Oh, and I didn't know they had super bowls during Otto Grahams time.

Also, Roger Staubach won SB 12, but lost SB 13...you got to win that next one to be great right? I guess he's in that Rams idiot catergory also.

Now once again, do these guy's have better ALL TIME stats than Favre... they all have one ring like Favre.

IPatentllo7o1 · Post by **IPatentllo7o1** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:31 pm

i think farve during his time was the best QB in the nfl.... but now he should retire.. hes trying to do the karl malone thing which is only making his fabulous career seem not so fabulous...

LocalCheesehead · Post by **LocalCheesehead** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:35 pm

The problem is his mind is younger than his body. I was hoping he could retire the way John Elway did...but it's not looking that way.

This link should "slam dunk" his top ten status........
http://efplfp.stealingisgood.com/favrerecord.html

H20 · Post by **H20** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:01 pm

Elway was lucky enough to have the right team when he finally got it all together, Favre's isn't looking too good. And thats how time will tell on Peyton Manning, if he wins one he'll be the next Elway, if he doesn't, Dan Marino.

themainevent · Post by **themainevent** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:56 pm

A QB's main job is to WIN. Favre won and he won a lot:

Stands alone at third on the all-time QB wins list with 139, behind only John Elway (148) and Dan Marino (147).

Super Bowl wins count up to a point but when compared to a players stats, it can't make up the deficit for someone like say, Terry Bradshaw. Yeah he won 4 Super Bowl titles but his career TD to INT ratio is almost even. He completed less than 52% of his passes for his career. His career rating is 70.9. Was Phil Rizzuto a better hitter than Ted Williams because he won more World Series Rings? Hell no. Was Kurt Rambis a better player than Patrick Ewing because he won more NBA titles? Hell no.

BKWarrior · Post by **BKWarrior** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:52 am

Heh, I always here that argument, usually from Bears fan when they come up to wiscy, they say, "He only won one ring!) I always say, how many did Marino and Kelly win? Then I tell them to shut up. Favre is one of the greatest QBs ever. I'm not even a Packer-backer (despite living in Wiscy) but I must say it.
In my opinion, Favre is better than Stabler, Namath(possibly my teams greatest ever QB)Plunkett, Simms, Brady, Staubach , and Starr.
He never really had superstar offensive players on his side. He won multiple MVPs, he got to two SBs, and he led GB from the gutter to the ring, and has had more years of exellence than not.
He is the last of the great QBs (for now) and I will miss him when he is gone.