Punahou taking players from other ILH teams

[HS Football Fanatic]

Is there a reason why Punahou does not have ALL the players on every year's all state team?

Assuming the recruiting people speak of were going on in the manner and at the levels accused, shouldn't Punahou have all the good players, except the odd few who don't like having their backpacks touched, or maintain some sort of undying loyalty to their neighborhood schools.

According to the legend, money is no object as all good Punahou football players are on scholarship, the players need not be competent students (since they are put in Some sort of easy educational "track" for athletes), and Punahou covers all pop warner, PAL, and other kiddie football and basketball leagues statewide.

What I don't understand is why we don't see more Punahou scollie athletes from sports hotbeds like Texas, Florida, and Pennsylvania.

But, if the legends are true, why isn't the Punahou starting 22 all on the all state team every year, with the second and even third strings also members or honorable mentions on that list???? It doesn't make sense. How can other schools field competitive teams when Punahou does what it supposedly does?

I'm surprised that you haven't heard about Punahou's self-imposed quota on how many intelligent, high-quality athletes it recruits/accepts/drags unwillingly from the athletes' neighborhoods. Punahou wants to keep things competitive enough with its opponents to allow them a sporting chance to win. Punahou loses just enough games--in a wide variety of sports, by the way--to give other schools the idea that they actually have a chance. Punahou is like the king who eats a feast and allows his servants and minions just enough leftovers to keep them groveling at his feet. That's why Eric Kadaoka left after the baseball team won 7 state titles in a row, and that's why the football team will not be as strong next year (after reaching four straight state championship games), and that's why the girls' volleyball team waited until the state championship final to beat Kamehameha.

Isn't it obvious?

Punahou is selective about who it takes???? And thinks about competition issues???

I don't buy it.

Something is wrong. Especially when you point out the baseball and volleyball angles.

Either Punahou has no idea what it is doing with all its riches, and supposed lack of ethics, or, well, maybe the legends are myths.

Because if the legends (or myths) were true, Punahou can do whatver it wants whenever it wants, and always dominate in everything.

My question is, how in the world did Punahou NOT get Mariota and Koehler, and Tabuyo and Tafua and Milton and Malepeai, and Tagaviloa of past and present. Doesn't make sense.

Well, no high school here--private or public--can get every blue-chipper. Some people simply don't care for Punahou, and that includes some kids. Some parents dislike Punahou enough that they've determined that their kids will neither play for--nor attend--Punahou. Also, a lot of parents say: "I'm paying taxes, and my kid is going to attend the neighborhood public high school that my tax dollars are paying for, and that's it." And who can argue with that?

[shooter808]

This was an old but interesting thread. The comment about Manti not ever feeling like he's a part of that world is really telling. Not liking that environment but being the hired gun, having to go up against folks that are your childhood buds must be very tough. On one hand, you want to win, feel good about what you accomplish - but at the same time, you beat your childhood friends, defeat the community where you know football championships mean so much. It's gotta have been a bittersweet victory.

You can call him a traitor but what is a young man supposed to do? Ignore the opportunity to give himself the best chance in life? No knock on the Puns but I thought about it a little and like the guy a little more now. Thinking about what he went through on a personal level, must have been tough.

No one likes when teams recruit to win, but it's especially grating when the "haves" use their money and influence to win. That's why it's grating. When STL recruited and won, I think it was different. Folks hated it but it wasn't the rich school buying championships.

Well my two cents. While it's hard for me to cheer for the Puns this weekend, I'll feel good about the local guys on the team whose hearts are with the guys they grew up with. They're in a tough place. Especially the North Shore guys.

[twnoexcuses]

"I'll feel good about the local guys on the team whose hearts are with the guys they grew up with."

So, you'll feel good about all the Punahou players, if you stop to think about it.

By the way, they're all still growing up.

This was an old but interesting thread. The comment about Manti not ever feeling like he's a part of that world is really telling. Not liking that environment but being the hired gun, having to go up against folks that are your childhood buds must be very tough. On one hand, you want to win, feel good about what you accomplish - but at the same time, you beat your childhood friends, defeat the community where you know football championships mean so much. It's gotta have been a bittersweet victory.

You can call him a traitor but what is a young man supposed to do? Ignore the opportunity to give himself the best chance in life? No knock on the Puns but I thought about it a little and like the guy a little more now. Thinking about what he went through on a personal level, must have been tough.

No one likes when teams recruit to win, but it's especially grating when the "haves" use their money and influence to win. That's why it's grating. When STL recruited and won, I think it was different. Folks hated it but it wasn't the rich school buying championships.

Well my two cents. While it's hard for me to cheer for the Puns this weekend, I'll feel good about the local guys on the team whose hearts are with the guys they grew up with. They're in a tough place. Especially the North Shore guys.

[Neighbor]

"Growing up together" in high school is far different than having grown up with the guys you played youth sports with

[HS Football Fanatic]

This was an old but interesting thread. The comment about Manti not ever feeling like he's a part of that world is really telling. Not liking that environment but being the hired gun, having to go up against folks that are your childhood buds must be very tough. On one hand, you want to win, feel good about what you accomplish - but at the same time, you beat your childhood friends, defeat the community where you know football championships mean so much. It's gotta have been a bittersweet victory.

You can call him a traitor but what is a young man supposed to do? Ignore the opportunity to give himself the best chance in life? No knock on the Puns but I thought about it a little and like the guy a little more now. Thinking about what he went through on a personal level, must have been tough.

No one likes when teams recruit to win, but it's especially grating when the "haves" use their money and influence to win. That's why it's grating. When STL recruited and won, I think it was different. Folks hated it but it wasn't the rich school buying championships.

Well my two cents. While it's hard for me to cheer for the Puns this weekend, I'll feel good about the local guys on the team whose hearts are with the guys they grew up with. They're in a tough place. Especially the North Shore guys.

It's hard for me to have much sympathy for Teo. As I see it, he double-crossed Kahuku. Instead of playing with a guilty conscience for Punahou, he could have played loud and proud for Kahuku. Though I'm not a Kahuku grad, I would have preferred that he played for Kahuku. For me, I resent Punahou not because it's a rich school, but rather because it monopolizes most of the ILH and state titles every year. That's what has gotten old for me, and it got old a long time ago. As for me, I'm cheering for Mililani this weekend, as you might imagine.

[Ramashack]

If you want to talk about football......do you guys realize that Punahou "only" has 2 state football titles to its name? After all the years of competing. PAC-5 has as many Prep Bowl titles and they did it 30 yrs ago. All this talk about monopolizing State titles......PUN supporters should be crying for their money back, if all the recruiting everyone claims to be happening, only resulted in something PAC-5 accomplished 30 yrs ago.

This may change after tonite but still yet....one more title than the wolfpack?? C'mon....think about what you guys are complaining about. If all of you truly believe what you say, you should be laughing at the return on investment.

[HS Football Fanatic]

If you want to talk about football......do you guys realize that Punahou "only" has 2 state football titles to its name? After all the years of competing. PAC-5 has as many Prep Bowl titles and they did it 30 yrs ago. All this talk about monopolizing State titles......PUN supporters should be crying for their money back, if all the recruiting everyone claims to be happening, only resulted in something PAC-5 accomplished 30 yrs ago.

This may change after tonite but still yet....one more title than the wolfpack?? C'mon....think about what you guys are complaining about. If all of you truly believe what you say, you should be laughing at the return on investment.

Well, but see, you're talking only about football titles. I'm talking about titles from all the other sports, too. If those two state football titles were basically all the titles that Punahou had--at least in recent memory--I probably wouldn't resent Punahou. But instead--for decades--Punahou has been winning titles left and right in many sports, and it's not like they've had a noticeable dry spell lately. And remember, each of those many titles that Punahou has been winning--over a period of decades--came at another school's expense. For each state title that Punahou won, another school lost. For each state title that Punahou was able to celebrate, the losing school had to endure the agony of defeat. When that kind of thing goes on for several decades, it turns-off the other schools and their alumni. Perhaps you can call that envy, but the point is that envy creates resentment, and resentment of Punahou is what we've been talking about here. It's a natural human reaction; I really don't think it can be gainsaid. Now, if Punahou wins tonight, that would be yet another state title (in terms of state titles overall, not football only) for them to celebrate, but it would subject Mililani to the agony of defeat. And, what do you think a Punahou win tonight would do to that resentment factor we've been talking about? That's right: It would feed it even more.

[Ramashack]

yeah I thought between your name & Teo & Kahuku you were talking about football.

but OK, what sports are you really talking about?? What 'major' highschool sport does Punahou dominate, just owns a dynasty?
What does Punahou really do that every other ILH school cannot do?

Your probably thinking more along the lines of 'minor' highschool sports. Probably sports that not all schools are able to offer to their kids or they don't have much turn-out.
So yeah less competition leads to more success.

to me, whether its OIA, ILH, MIL, BIIF.....if one school wins, yes another school loses, but its not at any school's 'expense'. Its the journey, not merely the destination, that makes athletics worth while. If only the "winner" had a successful year, no one would play sports. Think about how many kids play any sport versus how many are on the eventual champion team. A very small percentage. So everyone who didn't win it all wasted their time? No way. Losing is not pleasant but its as much a meaningful lesson or more than winning.

Maybe you dislike Punahou for other reasons. I think if you truly look at the data, Punahou doesn't always win.

[Ramashack]

also, I think in very recent years, within the past 2 or 3, Kapalama Heights had more State titles across the board than PUN in the scholastic year.

[HS Football Fanatic]

yeah I thought between your name & Teo & Kahuku you were talking about football.

but OK, what sports are you really talking about?? What 'major' highschool sport does Punahou dominate, just owns a dynasty?
What does Punahou really do that every other ILH school cannot do?

Your probably thinking more along the lines of 'minor' highschool sports. Probably sports that not all schools are able to offer to their kids or they don't have much turn-out.
So yeah less competition leads to more success.

to me, whether its OIA, ILH, MIL, BIIF.....if one school wins, yes another school loses, but its not at any school's 'expense'. Its the journey, not merely the destination, that makes athletics worth while. If only the "winner" had a successful year, no one would play sports. Think about how many kids play any sport versus how many are on the eventual champion team. A very small percentage. So everyone who didn't win it all wasted their time? No way. Losing is not pleasant but its as much a meaningful lesson or more than winning.

Maybe you dislike Punahou for other reasons. I think if you truly look at the data, Punahou doesn't always win.

1. You're attempting to emphasize a distinction between "major" sports and "minor" sports, which I think can be deceptive. As was mentioned by someone else on this thread, Punahou has 2 state football titles, and of course football is a major sport. Pretend for argument's sake that while Mililani has no state football titles (which is also true), it has nonetheless won state titles in every "minor" sport over the past, say, 30 years. Which school would people resent more? I dare say that in that hypothetical case, it would be Mililani. My point being: You can't look only at "major" sports. Not everyone plays football, basketball, or baseball. It's all sports, collectively.
2. A school doesn't have to win the state championship for a particular sport every year, but what if it wins it most years? That might not quite be a "dynasty," but it would be close enough. Given that qualification, how about Punahou's frequent titles in, say, girls' track, water polo, boys' volleyball, boys' tennis, and girls' tennis? Those are 5 such sports off the top of my head; there are likely more.
3. The issue isn't whether Punahou is doing something that other schools can't do, is it? The fact is that other schools haven't been doing it, for whatever reason.
4. You say that it's not at the expense of one school when another school beats it, but does that really make sense? If Punahou were to beat Mililani tonight, that victory would--by definition--be at Mililani's expense. Further, no one is denying that lessons can be learned from losing, especially on the high school level. Nonetheless, no one wants to lose, obviously. We shouldn't sugarcoat or trivialize defeat by attempting to pass it off merely as a "learning experience."
5. I can assure you that the reason I don't particularly care for Punahou is just as I've stated in my previous post; I have no hidden agenda.
6. Finally, no one said Punahou always wins. All I said is that they win often enough--and in enough different sports--to create resentment.

[Ramashack]

I believe the key is that not every one/school plays the minor sports, most every highschool will field a football, basketball & baseball team.....where there is more competition success is tougher, where there is less competition (participation) success is easier. Punahou finds success in these minor sports often times simply because they offer the opportunity in these minor sports or more to the point, they get a high percentage of the student body out to participate in athletics across the board.

but I'm sure the vast majority of participants on this forum are not really upset that PUN just won the State title in Air Riflery....I'll even say that most did not know that fact. No, most people who might share your "resentment" (such a strong word) believe Punahou "monopolizes" the MAJOR sports....but as last night shows, perception may be different from fact.

[shooter808]

1. You're attempting to emphasize a distinction between "major" sports and "minor" sports, which I think can be deceptive. As was mentioned by someone else on this thread, Punahou has 2 state football titles, and of course football is a major sport. Pretend for argument's sake that while Mililani has no state football titles (which is also true), it has nonetheless won state titles in every "minor" sport over the past, say, 30 years. Which school would people resent more? I dare say that in that hypothetical case, it would be Mililani. My point being: You can't look only at "major" sports. Not everyone plays football, basketball, or baseball. It's all sports, collectively.
2. A school doesn't have to win the state championship for a particular sport every year, but what if it wins it most years? That might not quite be a "dynasty," but it would be close enough. Given that qualification, how about Punahou's frequent titles in, say, girls' track, water polo, boys' volleyball, boys' tennis, and girls' tennis? Those are 5 such sports off the top of my head; there are likely more.
3. The issue isn't whether Punahou is doing something that other schools can't do, is it? The fact is that other schools haven't been doing it, for whatever reason.
4. You say that it's not at the expense of one school when another school beats it, but does that really make sense? If Punahou were to beat Mililani tonight, that victory would--by definition--be at Mililani's expense. Further, no one is denying that lessons can be learned from losing, especially on the high school level. Nonetheless, no one wants to lose, obviously. We shouldn't sugarcoat or trivialize defeat by attempting to pass it off merely as a "learning experience."
5. I can assure you that the reason I don't particularly care for Punahou is just as I've stated in my previous post; I have no hidden agenda.
6. Finally, no one said Punahou always wins. All I said is that they win often enough--and in enough different sports--to create resentment.

I think you're assessment is right on. Football is the most visible sport since it gets the die hard sports fans the most revved up. It the sport that the crazy dads and alums care the most about but there are a lot of other families and individuals that play a lot of other team sports. Many of them play knowing that in the end, they have no realistic chance of winning the state title. There is rarely a Cinderella story. Maybe it's a sport like air riflery where no one outside of the sport cares about, but if you're winning every year then that kind of eliminates the chance for some other school. Over the years that will build resentment.

And as far as football is concerned, Punahou has made it to the championship game four years in a row. Seems like the last two in dominant fashion. There are four schools in the running for next year. Puns, St Louis, Mililani and Kahuku.

All but Kahuhu recruit to some extant to be competitive. In my mind, that puts Kahuku's program above all else. St Louis and Mililani recruit too but I don't hear about free tuition being paid for by alums or jobs for family members. Kids go to play for a program or coach or visibility for opportunity at the next level.

The Puns recruiting is at another level, tuition paid for by alums, jobs or housing for family members. That's just stuff that other schools - even the ones that recruit can't compete with in the long run. That's why when a first time school like Mililani wins, everyone is happy. No one outside of Punahou alumni were cheering for them. It's not that they are bad folks or the local kids playing for them are bad kids, it's the perception that it's not fair is why no one cheers for the Puns. (at least that I know of)

When you win consistently, have the perception of an unfair advantage, you are a winner but not a popular one. Even when the Puns lose, like they did last night - it's like the Yankees, no one is crying when the team with the most money and resources loses. It's an underdog feel good story. Puns lost but no one feels like they were the underdog. They were holding the pocket Aces and just ended up losing. But it was an upset.

[HS Football Fanatic]

also, I think in very recent years, within the past 2 or 3, Kapalama Heights had more State titles across the board than PUN in the scholastic year.

I doubt that. I'm quite certain that Punahou had more state titles than Kamehameha all three years. The last time Kamehameha had more state titles than Punahou was 2003, if my memory serves me correctly.

[HS Football Fanatic]

I believe the key is that not every one/school plays the minor sports, most every highschool will field a football, basketball & baseball team.....where there is more competition success is tougher, where there is less competition (participation) success is easier. Punahou finds success in these minor sports often times simply because they offer the opportunity in these minor sports or more to the point, they get a high percentage of the student body out to participate in athletics across the board.

but I'm sure the vast majority of participants on this forum are not really upset that PUN just won the State title in Air Riflery....I'll even say that most did not know that fact. No, most people who might share your "resentment" (such a strong word) believe Punahou "monopolizes" the MAJOR sports....but as last night shows, perception may be different from fact.

Almost every "3-sport" school--by that I mean, a school that has its own football, basketball, and baseball teams--offer almost all of the minor sports. Speaking of air riflery--and now you've named a sixth sport than Punahou has won a state title in--OK, most guys might not be aware, or even care. However, the kids who are on their particular school's air riflery team care. And by the way, if you think "resentment" is a strong word, you ain't heard nothing yet. I know some Iolani grads who use much stronger words than that, believe me. (Iolani is one of Punahou's most bitter rivals.) I think it's unfair to confine our thinking to major sports. How would you define "major sport"? Just football, basketball, and baseball? There must be at least 15 other sports played at the high school level.

[HS Football Fanatic]

1. You're attempting to emphasize a distinction between "major" sports and "minor" sports, which I think can be deceptive. As was mentioned by someone else on this thread, Punahou has 2 state football titles, and of course football is a major sport. Pretend for argument's sake that while Mililani has no state football titles (which is also true), it has nonetheless won state titles in every "minor" sport over the past, say, 30 years. Which school would people resent more? I dare say that in that hypothetical case, it would be Mililani. My point being: You can't look only at "major" sports. Not everyone plays football, basketball, or baseball. It's all sports, collectively.
2. A school doesn't have to win the state championship for a particular sport every year, but what if it wins it most years? That might not quite be a "dynasty," but it would be close enough. Given that qualification, how about Punahou's frequent titles in, say, girls' track, water polo, boys' volleyball, boys' tennis, and girls' tennis? Those are 5 such sports off the top of my head; there are likely more.
3. The issue isn't whether Punahou is doing something that other schools can't do, is it? The fact is that other schools haven't been doing it, for whatever reason.
4. You say that it's not at the expense of one school when another school beats it, but does that really make sense? If Punahou were to beat Mililani tonight, that victory would--by definition--be at Mililani's expense. Further, no one is denying that lessons can be learned from losing, especially on the high school level. Nonetheless, no one wants to lose, obviously. We shouldn't sugarcoat or trivialize defeat by attempting to pass it off merely as a "learning experience."
5. I can assure you that the reason I don't particularly care for Punahou is just as I've stated in my previous post; I have no hidden agenda.
6. Finally, no one said Punahou always wins. All I said is that they win often enough--and in enough different sports--to create resentment.

I think you're assessment is right on. Football is the most visible sport since it gets the die hard sports fans the most revved up. It the sport that the crazy dads and alums care the most about but there are a lot of other families and individuals that play a lot of other team sports. Many of them play knowing that in the end, they have no realistic chance of winning the state title. There is rarely a Cinderella story. Maybe it's a sport like air riflery where no one outside of the sport cares about, but if you're winning every year then that kind of eliminates the chance for some other school. Over the years that will build resentment.

And as far as football is concerned, Punahou has made it to the championship game four years in a row. Seems like the last two in dominant fashion. There are four schools in the running for next year. Puns, St Louis, Mililani and Kahuku.

All but Kahuhu recruit to some extant to be competitive. In my mind, that puts Kahuku's program above all else. St Louis and Mililani recruit too but I don't hear about free tuition being paid for by alums or jobs for family members. Kids go to play for a program or coach or visibility for opportunity at the next level.

The Puns recruiting is at another level, tuition paid for by alums, jobs or housing for family members. That's just stuff that other schools - even the ones that recruit can't compete with in the long run. That's why when a first time school like Mililani wins, everyone is happy. No one outside of Punahou alumni were cheering for them. It's not that they are bad folks or the local kids playing for them are bad kids, it's the perception that it's not fair is why no one cheers for the Puns. (at least that I know of)

When you win consistently, have the perception of an unfair advantage, you are a winner but not a popular one. Even when the Puns lose, like they did last night - it's like the Yankees, no one is crying when the team with the most money and resources loses. It's an underdog feel good story. Puns lost but no one feels like they were the underdog. They were holding the pocket Aces and just ended up losing. But it was an upset.

Thank-you, and I'd like to add a few additional observations. Yes, I agree that Punahou students / alumni are not necessarily bad kids or bad people. Now, I'm sure Punahou has some bad kids and some bad alumni, but so does every school, even private schools. So I agree, no one is trying to paint Punahou students / alumni as bad people overall. Where I work, there are 2 Punahou grads, 1 Mililani grad, and everyone else graduated from other high schools. Of the folks who graduated from other schools, none of them wanted Punahou to win, including myself. I don't particularly care for Punahou, but not because they recruit. I'm simply tired of them winning so many titles--ILH and state titles--for several decades. I'm talking about titles from all sports, not just football. I can't speak for the rest of the folks at my place of work, but for myself, that's the reason. In other words, if Punahou recruited for football, but didn't win so many titles from all sports overall, I wouldn't dislike them.