Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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seasider
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Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

Post by seasider »

Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

Undoubtedly Athletic Director Ben Jay and the Chancellor have the inside scoop on what is going on with the NCAA.

The program is already feeling the effects of their “quick-draw” response (most likely to appease the “powers-that-be” at UH and the NCAA) to the impending NCAA’s penalty: 1) Most likely lose Isaac Fotu; 2) Sam Reyes asking for his release, and will transfer after this semester; 3) A 3-Star 6-11 high school Post, who was ready to commit, has changed his mind; 4) UH will lose a coach who can recruit 3-star preps, and highly rated transfers with 3 years to play. Rick Pitino was the last UH coach who was able to recruit highly rated preps, i.e. George Lett, and Rivers (? Name-I believe both were prep recruits from New York. Rivers transferred to St John and made it to the NBA. I belive he passed away a few years ago).

Their firing of coach Gib Arnold, and assistant coach Brandyn Akana is another of the Athletic Department’s fiasco, i.e. huge buy-out contract of coach MacMakin (A non-BCS program who signed him to a 1.2 million contract), the failed Wonder Concert, and a year’s worth of vacation pay for Price, who was hired to be last year’s Offensive Coordinator.

Bottom line, their jumping the gun, IMHO, wouldn’t have changed the NCAA’s verdict.

Is the principal “Innocent until proven guilty” a fallacy at an institution with great minds (law)? IMHO, they have taken Coach Arnold’s fundamental rights to “his day in court”.

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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Do you really buy Gib's claim that he had no opportunity to defend himself? In fact, have you ever seen ANY major NCAA investigation where the NCAA ruling was changed or reversed AFTER it was released because of some public claim of ignorance by the accused? I can't recall that ever happening, can you? What makes people think that this would happen in our case? Do people really think that the forged document is the only thing they found? After multiple early transfers, a lawsuit from a former player, a player leaving the arena before his last game was even over, a player refusing to enter the game, and several assistant coaches leaving for "personal reasons", you don't think all that smoke signaled some kind of fire burning inside the basketball program?

The bottom line is that Gib's reputation is completely tarnished and his ONLY hope at ever getting another major head coaching job is to create some kind of "plausible deniability" about his situation and play UH's silence against itself and hope that it sticks as the part of the narrative that people remember. This is the act of a desperate man.

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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And for your list of "Athletic Department's fiaso" examples...

-The "Huge buyout" of McMackin was for half of his contract. The fact that he even agreed to a buyout is enough to think that the university had a compelling case against him. And remember that the Athletic Department wasn't the sole party involved in Mack's hiring - The lady in the cowboy hat had a big part in that as well.

-We don't know the details of why Aaron Price was terminated before training camp, but we do know that it was Chow's call to hire him and Chow's call to fire him. Hard to hang that one on the UHAD. At least they sent him away before he committed any NCAA violations.

Also, what good do "3-star recruits" do us if we can't even get past the quarterfinals of the conference tournament? I'd rather have 2-star guys who don't fall apart every time the other team throws a 2-1-2 zone at them.

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

Post by seasider »

Poidog,

Don't get all riled up...LOL, my post is JMHO...take it with a grain of salt.

And that highly recruited athlete by Pitino was the late Reggie Carter.

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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i have to get riled up because Gib's got what seems like 90% of the internet public on his side and it drives me crazy that there isn't much being said on the other side of the argument. I get frustrated when people get mad about the wrong stuff. For example:
1) it was mentioned by several people and mentioned in a piece by either Reardon or Lewis in the paper a few days ago that the Manoa Chancellor made the call to buy Gib out.
2) If it were up to Ben Jay, he would have renewed Gib months ago and we know this because it was common knowledge that Jay had forwarded the contract to Tom Apple for his signature and would have been signed had Apple not been removed from power.

If you take those two bullet points and add them up you come to the obvious conclusion that the decision was made way above Ben Jay's head and that if it were up to Jay, Gib would still be the coach. But does the public come to this pretty obvious conclusion? NOOOOOOO. Instead we have pages and pages of comments on various StarAdv articles with people mad at Jay for removing Gib. It is moments like these that give the Hawaii fan base ZERO credibility and ZERO reason for the University to ever take the public seriously when it comes to real, hard criticism of the athletic program. They treat us as if we are not smart enough to have any say in what goes on, and we constantly prove them right by reacting without thinking. I'm just doing what little I can to try to bring the other side of things to light (and I do realize that it is very little that anyone on a message board can actually do).

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

Post by 808Hawaii »

seasider wrote:Poidog,

Don't get all riled up...LOL, my post is JMHO...take it with a grain of salt.

And that highly recruited athlete by Pitino was the late Reggie Carter.
+1, Reggie Carter.
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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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Ok, so I'm not that familiar with firings and when you have to buy someone out, but, if Gib really did do those bad things you are saying the public doesn't see, why do we have to buy him out? If he is the one with misconduct, aren't we firing him with cause, therefore should not have to pay him? Does that mean the university really doesn't have all that dirt on him? Maybe I just don't know about these things, so sorry if its a dumb question.
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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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travo66 wrote:Ok, so I'm not that familiar with firings and when you have to buy someone out, but, if Gib really did do those bad things you are saying the public doesn't see, why do we have to buy him out? If he is the one with misconduct, aren't we firing him with cause, therefore should not have to pay him? Does that mean the university really doesn't have all that dirt on him? Maybe I just don't know about these things, so sorry if its a dumb question.
Not a dumb question but a complicated one. If UH fires someone with cause, they have to prove it, perhaps in a court of law. Takes time. Cost money. And they better be right. If they are right, no need pay buyout.

If UH fires someone without cause, they don't have to explain anything to anybody - not even the coach they're firing. Presto! Coach is gone. But it they still have to pay the buyout.

That' s my understanding of cause/without cause. If someone can add to it or explain it better, I'd liek to know too.
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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

Post by xer 21 »

travo66 wrote:Ok, so I'm not that familiar with firings and when you have to buy someone out, but, if Gib really did do those bad things you are saying the public doesn't see, why do we have to buy him out? If he is the one with misconduct, aren't we firing him with cause, therefore should not have to pay him? Does that mean the university really doesn't have all that dirt on him? Maybe I just don't know about these things, so sorry if its a dumb question.
the NCAA hasnt released their findings yet.
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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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travo66 wrote:Ok, so I'm not that familiar with firings and when you have to buy someone out, but, if Gib really did do those bad things you are saying the public doesn't see, why do we have to buy him out? If he is the one with misconduct, aren't we firing him with cause, therefore should not have to pay him? Does that mean the university really doesn't have all that dirt on him? Maybe I just don't know about these things, so sorry if its a dumb question.
not a dumb question. I think it is just hard to fire a coach "for cause" unless they break a state or federal law or something of that degree. A coach can go nearly-winless for 3 seasons and even that would not warrant a "for cause" termination (I'm looking at you, Norm!). Also, the university may feel that $340k is a necessary cost to take action before the NCAA makes its ruling and/or to avoid a drawn-out court battle that may end up costing just as much money in the long run without the benefit of being able to move forward sooner than later. Just my opinion, though...

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

Post by managerr »

808Hawaii wrote:
travo66 wrote:Ok, so I'm not that familiar with firings and when you have to buy someone out, but, if Gib really did do those bad things you are saying the public doesn't see, why do we have to buy him out? If he is the one with misconduct, aren't we firing him with cause, therefore should not have to pay him? Does that mean the university really doesn't have all that dirt on him? Maybe I just don't know about these things, so sorry if its a dumb question.
Not a dumb question but a complicated one. If UH fires someone with cause, they have to prove it, perhaps in a court of law. Takes time. Cost money. And they better be right. If they are right, no need pay buyout.
.
If the buyout was a million+, they would have looked to fire with cause. But legal fees would easily be more than 340k. Plus, the risk of MORE stuff coming out, including things the NCAA didn't find.

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

Post by managerr »

seasider wrote:Bottom line, their jumping the gun, IMHO, wouldn’t have changed the NCAA’s verdict.
Also, don't think it would have changed the minds of the players who would end up leaving.

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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managerr wrote:
seasider wrote:Bottom line, their jumping the gun, IMHO, wouldn’t have changed the NCAA’s verdict.
Also, don't think it would have changed the minds of the players who would end up leaving.
Fotu came to Hawaii because of coach Arnold and coach Akana. Ditto with Reyes.

The rest, we'll find out how well this season goes, and what direction Athletic Director BJ decides to go.

The drama is just beginning.

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

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http://www.warriorinsider.com/2014/11/a ... rspective/

A parents’ perspective
Written by Warrior Insider

NOTE: The following letter was submitted to WarriorInsider.com by the parents of one of the current members of the University of Hawai’i basketball team. They have granted permission to print the letter in full.

How do you reach through the phone to hug your child living thousands of miles away when his world has just imploded?

As a parent of a member of the UH Men’s Basketball Team, I too share the same questions, frustrations and emotions that surround the most recent events of our program. However, at the forefront, I must remember this isn’t about me; it’s about those young men who have dreamt about playing Division I basketball since they were young children and for some, like our son, dreamt about doing it in Hawaii.

When we sent our son to Hawaii two years ago, we sent with him with dreams, hopes and an expectation that he would not only represent our family name in the utmost positive light, but more importantly, represent the state and people of Hawaii who were allowing him to represent them.

In light of recent events, I ask the men and women of the great state of Hawaii to take time to truly reflect on the meaning of sports and what it has taught us about life and ourselves. At the very center of sports, we find adversity, difficulty and sometimes, disappointment. But most importantly, we have discovered that sport brings out the very best of the core values that are essential to life’s success; effective communication, perseverance, and determination.

As we enter upon the 2014-2015 season, I ask that you remember that beneath all the wins and losses, “x’s” and “o’s” are real people, with real lives, real men with real dreams. And while it is understood that every person is entitled to his/her opinion, you put that aside and rally your support around these hard working young men who want nothing more than to make YOU, the men and women of Hawaii, proud.

I have heard a variety of comments ranging from people opting to watch games from the comfort of their home, to canceling season tickets or their desire for the University to just rid itself of all sports. This season, the victory may not be measured by wins and losses, but in rather a moral victory, steeped in love and support.

Webster’s Dictionary defines the word, “Warrior” as a man engaged/ experienced in war and as it is in war, masses/troops and tactics are essential to any victory.

On November 14, 2014 and for the remainder of the 2014-2105 season, the parents of the Men’s Basketball team ask that you come out and stand with OUR warriors who go to battle on the floor everyday for the sake of making Hawaii proud.

Respectfully,
Andy and Julia Valdes
(Let’s Go Bows!)

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Re: Did Ben Jay and the Chancellor jump the gun?

Post by 808Hawaii »

seasider wrote:The drama is just beginning.
It is the spring time of our drama. :-?
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