unpaid D-I football

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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genks wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:34 pm What a roll Waipahu is on. They should step up to the Open while they still have Failunga next year. They will still beat Waianae, probably Farrington, who knows who else. Props to them.

Interesting to know that enrollment wise they should’ve been in the Open all this time. But if you ignore enrollment it seems they were in the right place.
@genks: I don't know how well they'd do in Open. Yes, Waipahu High has the second-largest enrollment next to Campbell High, I think. But I think guys are putting too much emphasis on enrollment. Kahuku High's enrollment is small enough that if you went by enrollment, they shouldn't be in Open. And, if Waipahu High's enrollment is so large, why did they beat Iolani School by only 1 point? Until Waipahu starts playing more disciplined, and not rack-up so many penalties, they probably don't belong in Open. I'd say that, at the moment, Waipahu is where they belong (not Open). Another problem with going by enrollment is that, just because a school has a large enrollment, how many guys are going out for football? I don't mean to get on coaching, because as an adult I side with coaches. But, suppose a large-enrollment school has a football team that has "coaching issues." It's possible that not many guys will go out for football because of that. I think that if a school does very well in football for a season, let that school go up to the next-highest division, regardless of its enrollment. Likewise, of course, if a school sucks in football for one season, let that school go down to the division immediately below, even if that school has a large enrollment. It's possible for a smaller-enrollment school to have a good football team, and it's possible for a larger-enrollment school to have a sucky football team. Let each school's football team--not its enrollment--do the talking.

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:41 pm
genks wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:34 pm What a roll Waipahu is on. They should step up to the Open while they still have Failunga next year. They will still beat Waianae, probably Farrington, who knows who else. Props to them.

Interesting to know that enrollment wise they should’ve been in the Open all this time. But if you ignore enrollment it seems they were in the right place.
@genks: I don't know how well they'd do in Open. Yes, Waipahu High has the second-largest enrollment next to Campbell High, I think. But I think guys are putting too much emphasis on enrollment. Kahuku High's enrollment is small enough that if you went by enrollment, they shouldn't be in Open. And, if Waipahu High's enrollment is so large, why did they beat Iolani School by only 1 point? Until Waipahu starts playing more disciplined, and not rack-up so many penalties, they probably don't belong in Open. I'd say that, at the moment, Waipahu is where they belong (not Open). Another problem with going by enrollment is that, just because a school has a large enrollment, how many guys are going out for football? I don't mean to get on coaching, because as an adult I side with coaches. But, suppose a large-enrollment school has a football team that has "coaching issues." It's possible that not many guys will go out for football because of that. I think that if a school does very well in football for a season, let that school go up to the next-highest division, regardless of its enrollment. Likewise, of course, if a school sucks in football for one season, let that school go down to the division immediately below, even if that school has a large enrollment. It's possible for a smaller-enrollment school to have a good football team, and it's possible for a larger-enrollment school to have a sucky football team. Let each school's football team--not its enrollment--do the talking.
Isn’t enrollment one of the factors that go into which division a team goes into? I honestly don’t know.

Should the success of a team determine where they land? I understand what you are saying as far as competition and which division a team fits. But if Kahuku became really undisciplined and racked up a ton of penalties and had a down year should they move down to D1? Mililani moves down and won a title.

If Waipahu belonged in the Open, but lost games due to penalties, does that mean they should move to D1? Penalties are self inflicted, if that affects a teams succes then that’s on them.

I think we all agree that Waipahu wouldn’t be the worst team in the Open, they stomped Waianae. They are right where they want to be and are doing great but I don’t think we can say they don’t belong in the Open. That means Waianae and Farrington don’t belong in the Open either. They are also pretty big where they need to be. If they stood around with other Open teams you wouldn’t look at them and think “wow they are gonna get smashed they are so small”.

Just some interesting talking points

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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Thing is with teams like Waianae and Farrington, they get depleted of "skill" players by transfers or scholarships. Right now Waipahu has a committed coaching staff, brand new turf field and a bonified football program. Once the community and school admin. staff gets behind you things get easier. It took several years for York to do that at Mililani. With DE in effect for public schools, you might see certain schools become "feeder" for the powerhouses. Look at Leileihua. Always was a contender in the early 2000s, but look whose east of them now. Wasn't the Waipahu qb a Hurricane last year? Now with a public school program you need lobbyist,DE recruiters and DOE staff intervention. But in the long run, the player and parents wants the best and the program that will get the scholarships. Neighborhood pride has nothing to do with it now. Hawaii is one neighborhood.

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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I think that if Lahaina luna wins the D2 State, for a third year in a roll, they need to move up to D1.

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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genks wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:17 am
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:41 pm
genks wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:34 pm What a roll Waipahu is on. They should step up to the Open while they still have Failunga next year. They will still beat Waianae, probably Farrington, who knows who else. Props to them.

Interesting to know that enrollment wise they should’ve been in the Open all this time. But if you ignore enrollment it seems they were in the right place.
@genks: I don't know how well they'd do in Open. Yes, Waipahu High has the second-largest enrollment next to Campbell High, I think. But I think guys are putting too much emphasis on enrollment. Kahuku High's enrollment is small enough that if you went by enrollment, they shouldn't be in Open. And, if Waipahu High's enrollment is so large, why did they beat Iolani School by only 1 point? Until Waipahu starts playing more disciplined, and not rack-up so many penalties, they probably don't belong in Open. I'd say that, at the moment, Waipahu is where they belong (not Open). Another problem with going by enrollment is that, just because a school has a large enrollment, how many guys are going out for football? I don't mean to get on coaching, because as an adult I side with coaches. But, suppose a large-enrollment school has a football team that has "coaching issues." It's possible that not many guys will go out for football because of that. I think that if a school does very well in football for a season, let that school go up to the next-highest division, regardless of its enrollment. Likewise, of course, if a school sucks in football for one season, let that school go down to the division immediately below, even if that school has a large enrollment. It's possible for a smaller-enrollment school to have a good football team, and it's possible for a larger-enrollment school to have a sucky football team. Let each school's football team--not its enrollment--do the talking.
Isn’t enrollment one of the factors that go into which division a team goes into? I honestly don’t know.

Should the success of a team determine where they land? I understand what you are saying as far as competition and which division a team fits. But if Kahuku became really undisciplined and racked up a ton of penalties and had a down year should they move down to D1? Mililani moves down and won a title.

If Waipahu belonged in the Open, but lost games due to penalties, does that mean they should move to D1? Penalties are self inflicted, if that affects a teams succes then that’s on them.

I think we all agree that Waipahu wouldn’t be the worst team in the Open, they stomped Waianae. They are right where they want to be and are doing great but I don’t think we can say they don’t belong in the Open. That means Waianae and Farrington don’t belong in the Open either. They are also pretty big where they need to be. If they stood around with other Open teams you wouldn’t look at them and think “wow they are gonna get smashed they are so small”.

Just some interesting talking points
@genks: I think there are three issues here.
1. Physical size
2. Roster size
3. Blowout prevention.

1. If a school usually fields physically small teams (like Iolani), they shouldn't be in Open. That poses a health/safety hazard, as most of the Open schools have physically large players.
2. If a school has a small roster (i.e., number of players), that shouldn't disqualify it from Open. Why? If a school has a small roster, but good-sized players, that school might still be able to survive Open. Granted, some of those big players may have to play both ways, but at least they're big. The school that immediately comes to my mind is Kaimuki. OK, they're only in D2, but they've got good size. Of course, Kaimuki couldn't handle Open, but at least there's less of a fear of physical wear-and-tear, as opposed to what we'd fear if most of Kaimuki's players were small. Besides, if an Open school has a super-good player who is talented on both sides of the ball, that school might use him both ways, even though that school has a large roster AND large players. Take Kamehameha, for example. Kamehameha is an Open school with a large roster and large players. Yet, they used Kupono Blake on both O-line and D-line, not because they had to due to a small roster (as we said, Kamehameha has a large roster), but because he's so good on both lines that Kamehameha thought it would be a shame and a waste not to play him both ways.
3. If I recall correctly, the reason our state went to classification back in the mid-2000s is that guys were tired of the same schools getting blown-out every year. Now a school like, say, Kalani, won't have to play a school like, say, Kahuku. Likewise, a school like, say, Iolani, won't have to play a school like, say, St Louis.

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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Markeke wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:31 am Thing is with teams like Waianae and Farrington, they get depleted of "skill" players by transfers or scholarships. Right now Waipahu has a committed coaching staff, brand new turf field and a bonified football program. Once the community and school admin. staff gets behind you things get easier. It took several years for York to do that at Mililani. With DE in effect for public schools, you might see certain schools become "feeder" for the powerhouses. Look at Leileihua. Always was a contender in the early 2000s, but look whose east of them now. Wasn't the Waipahu qb a Hurricane last year? Now with a public school program you need lobbyist,DE recruiters and DOE staff intervention. But in the long run, the player and parents wants the best and the program that will get the scholarships. Neighborhood pride has nothing to do with it now. Hawaii is one neighborhood.
@Markeke: I think I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. As I recall from your previous posts, you're a Kahuku alumnus. Now, just because Kahuku has had a pretty bad year (by Kahuku standards, at least), I'd like to think that that doesn't mean that a large number of Kahuku players will be transferring to Mililani, which had a much better year than Kahuku. I think school/alumni pride still plays a part. I don't think all parents are mercenary enough to send their kids to whichever school has the best football team. I think a lot of parents will say, "Kahuku is my alma mater, and we still live within Kahuku's school district. So, my son will play for Kahuku. That's it."

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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Markeke wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:21 pm I think that if Lahaina luna wins the D2 State, for a third year in a roll, they need to move up to D1.
@Markeke: Oh, definitely. It seems that Lahainaluna High has had good physical size and adequate roster size, forever.

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:10 pm
Markeke wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:21 pm I think that if Lahaina luna wins the D2 State, for a third year in a roll, they need to move up to D1.
@Markeke: Oh, definitely. It seems that Lahainaluna High has had good physical size and adequate roster size, forever.
They’ve WON D1 state tournament games against the OIA’s best in the past.
Punahou Football: 12-1, 2008 ILH and State Champions! 11-0, 2013 ILH and State Champions, a team for the ages!

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:56 pm
genks wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:17 am
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:41 pm

@genks: I don't know how well they'd do in Open. Yes, Waipahu High has the second-largest enrollment next to Campbell High, I think. But I think guys are putting too much emphasis on enrollment. Kahuku High's enrollment is small enough that if you went by enrollment, they shouldn't be in Open. And, if Waipahu High's enrollment is so large, why did they beat Iolani School by only 1 point? Until Waipahu starts playing more disciplined, and not rack-up so many penalties, they probably don't belong in Open. I'd say that, at the moment, Waipahu is where they belong (not Open). Another problem with going by enrollment is that, just because a school has a large enrollment, how many guys are going out for football? I don't mean to get on coaching, because as an adult I side with coaches. But, suppose a large-enrollment school has a football team that has "coaching issues." It's possible that not many guys will go out for football because of that. I think that if a school does very well in football for a season, let that school go up to the next-highest division, regardless of its enrollment. Likewise, of course, if a school sucks in football for one season, let that school go down to the division immediately below, even if that school has a large enrollment. It's possible for a smaller-enrollment school to have a good football team, and it's possible for a larger-enrollment school to have a sucky football team. Let each school's football team--not its enrollment--do the talking.
Isn’t enrollment one of the factors that go into which division a team goes into? I honestly don’t know.

Should the success of a team determine where they land? I understand what you are saying as far as competition and which division a team fits. But if Kahuku became really undisciplined and racked up a ton of penalties and had a down year should they move down to D1? Mililani moves down and won a title.

If Waipahu belonged in the Open, but lost games due to penalties, does that mean they should move to D1? Penalties are self inflicted, if that affects a teams succes then that’s on them.

I think we all agree that Waipahu wouldn’t be the worst team in the Open, they stomped Waianae. They are right where they want to be and are doing great but I don’t think we can say they don’t belong in the Open. That means Waianae and Farrington don’t belong in the Open either. They are also pretty big where they need to be. If they stood around with other Open teams you wouldn’t look at them and think “wow they are gonna get smashed they are so small”.

Just some interesting talking points
@genks: I think there are three issues here.
1. Physical size
2. Roster size
3. Blowout prevention.

1. If a school usually fields physically small teams (like Iolani), they shouldn't be in Open. That poses a health/safety hazard, as most of the Open schools have physically large players.
2. If a school has a small roster (i.e., number of players), that shouldn't disqualify it from Open. Why? If a school has a small roster, but good-sized players, that school might still be able to survive Open. Granted, some of those big players may have to play both ways, but at least they're big. The school that immediately comes to my mind is Kaimuki. OK, they're only in D2, but they've got good size. Of course, Kaimuki couldn't handle Open, but at least there's less of a fear of physical wear-and-tear, as opposed to what we'd fear if most of Kaimuki's players were small. Besides, if an Open school has a super-good player who is talented on both sides of the ball, that school might use him both ways, even though that school has a large roster AND large players. Take Kamehameha, for example. Kamehameha is an Open school with a large roster and large players. Yet, they used Kupono Blake on both O-line and D-line, not because they had to due to a small roster (as we said, Kamehameha has a large roster), but because he's so good on both lines that Kamehameha thought it would be a shame and a waste not to play him both ways.
3. If I recall correctly, the reason our state went to classification back in the mid-2000s is that guys were tired of the same schools getting blown-out every year. Now a school like, say, Kalani, won't have to play a school like, say, Kahuku. Likewise, a school like, say, Iolani, won't have to play a school like, say, St Louis.
Yes these are good points.

When I saw what Iolani’s team looks like compared to Waipahu, I did not want them to line up against us, Punahou, or Kam. They play hard but are waaay too small and I’d be afraid of injuries.

I’m sure any team could freely move up a division. If they decide they want tougher competition then have at it. It’s the moving down part, that’s where it gets tricky. Both Waipahu and Lahainaluna could move up and would be congratulated for doing so. But could Kapolei move down after a losing season? SHOULD they be allowed to do so? Success comes and goes, they probably won’t have another team like their 2016 team. Should an Open team be able to move down just because a lack of talented players or a losing season?

In the case of Waipahu, eyeball test, do they look like an open team? Size, physical, and already hold a win over an open team. So if Kapolei cants move down, should Waipahu be made to move up?

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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gopunahou wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:00 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:10 pm
Markeke wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:21 pm I think that if Lahaina luna wins the D2 State, for a third year in a roll, they need to move up to D1.
@Markeke: Oh, definitely. It seems that Lahainaluna High has had good physical size and adequate roster size, forever.
They’ve WON D1 state tournament games against the OIA’s best in the past.
Isn’t there some sort of rule after so many wins they force you to move up? Which is why Iolani played with STL, Punahou and Kam in 2016 I think?

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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Lol, HS football fanatic, no I'm not a Kahuku alumni. Actually a Governor. My kids went to Kahuku and lived & worked there for 16 years. And no I don't think Kahuku kids would play at Mililani. The off year Kahuku is experiencing is because, new coaching,new OC mid season and a high amount to injuries to key players. Losing 5 starters on D is big, but it is what it is. Plus I don't think kids want to travel 1 and a half hour to Mililani. They might as well go to Campbell with DJ.

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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genks wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:06 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:56 pm
genks wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:17 am

Isn’t enrollment one of the factors that go into which division a team goes into? I honestly don’t know.

Should the success of a team determine where they land? I understand what you are saying as far as competition and which division a team fits. But if Kahuku became really undisciplined and racked up a ton of penalties and had a down year should they move down to D1? Mililani moves down and won a title.

If Waipahu belonged in the Open, but lost games due to penalties, does that mean they should move to D1? Penalties are self inflicted, if that affects a teams succes then that’s on them.

I think we all agree that Waipahu wouldn’t be the worst team in the Open, they stomped Waianae. They are right where they want to be and are doing great but I don’t think we can say they don’t belong in the Open. That means Waianae and Farrington don’t belong in the Open either. They are also pretty big where they need to be. If they stood around with other Open teams you wouldn’t look at them and think “wow they are gonna get smashed they are so small”.

Just some interesting talking points
@genks: I think there are three issues here.
1. Physical size
2. Roster size
3. Blowout prevention.

1. If a school usually fields physically small teams (like Iolani), they shouldn't be in Open. That poses a health/safety hazard, as most of the Open schools have physically large players.
2. If a school has a small roster (i.e., number of players), that shouldn't disqualify it from Open. Why? If a school has a small roster, but good-sized players, that school might still be able to survive Open. Granted, some of those big players may have to play both ways, but at least they're big. The school that immediately comes to my mind is Kaimuki. OK, they're only in D2, but they've got good size. Of course, Kaimuki couldn't handle Open, but at least there's less of a fear of physical wear-and-tear, as opposed to what we'd fear if most of Kaimuki's players were small. Besides, if an Open school has a super-good player who is talented on both sides of the ball, that school might use him both ways, even though that school has a large roster AND large players. Take Kamehameha, for example. Kamehameha is an Open school with a large roster and large players. Yet, they used Kupono Blake on both O-line and D-line, not because they had to due to a small roster (as we said, Kamehameha has a large roster), but because he's so good on both lines that Kamehameha thought it would be a shame and a waste not to play him both ways.
3. If I recall correctly, the reason our state went to classification back in the mid-2000s is that guys were tired of the same schools getting blown-out every year. Now a school like, say, Kalani, won't have to play a school like, say, Kahuku. Likewise, a school like, say, Iolani, won't have to play a school like, say, St Louis.
Yes these are good points.

When I saw what Iolani’s team looks like compared to Waipahu, I did not want them to line up against us, Punahou, or Kam. They play hard but are waaay too small and I’d be afraid of injuries.

I’m sure any team could freely move up a division. If they decide they want tougher competition then have at it. It’s the moving down part, that’s where it gets tricky. Both Waipahu and Lahainaluna could move up and would be congratulated for doing so. But could Kapolei move down after a losing season? SHOULD they be allowed to do so? Success comes and goes, they probably won’t have another team like their 2016 team. Should an Open team be able to move down just because a lack of talented players or a losing season?

In the case of Waipahu, eyeball test, do they look like an open team? Size, physical, and already hold a win over an open team. So if Kapolei cants move down, should Waipahu be made to move up?

@genks: I don't think a school should be able to move up on the basis of physical size alone. Again, Kaimuki comes to mind. One year in the early-2000s, Kaimuki had the biggest O-line in the state. Yes, bigger than Kahuku's and Kamehameha's. Yet, Kaimuki didn't even make it to States. I think roster size has to also be taken into consideration. How many players are on the team? On the other hand, a school like Waipahu should be able to move-up, because they have roster size and physical size. Their problem is undisciplined play, which results in excessive penalties. But, that's not a health/safety issue. Kapolei is similar to Waipahu: They have roster size and physical size. Remember how big their O-line was about three or four years ago? I think Kapolei should be allowed to move down to D1 because, as a general rule, most D1 schools have adequate physical size. (The only exception here would be Iolani, I think.) A D1 school should be allowed to move-up to Open only if they have adequate roster size AND physical size. Again, most D1 schools do, but not all. Therefore, a school like Iolani should be allowed to move-up to Open only if they have physical size on both lines. About two years ago, Iolani had a fairly big D-line, but not so much the O-line. Problem is, Iolani rarely has a big O-line. They did back in '80, so it's no coincidence they tied Waianae in the Prep Bowl that year. But, that was 38 years ago.
Last edited by HS Football Fanatic on Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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Markeke wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:45 pm Lol, HS football fanatic, no I'm not a Kahuku alumni. Actually a Governor. My kids went to Kahuku and lived & worked there for 16 years. And no I don't think Kahuku kids would play at Mililani. The off year Kahuku is experiencing is because, new coaching,new OC mid season and a high amount to injuries to key players. Losing 5 starters on D is big, but it is what it is. Plus I don't think kids want to travel 1 and a half hour to Mililani. They might as well go to Campbell with DJ.
@Markeke: Oh! You faked me out. I thought you posted "My Red Raiders" in the past. Oh well, OK. But even in your case, while you're not a Kahuku alumnus, you live in Kahuku's school district. And, as you said, your kids attended Kahuku. But, would you have sent your kids to Campbell High? Isn't that almost as far from Kahuku's school district as is Mililani High? Isn't Waialua High the closest public school to Kahuku High? (Well, not that you would have sent your kids to Waialua. Why would you have, when Kahuku always has a better football team?)

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:05 pm
Markeke wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:45 pm Lol, HS football fanatic, no I'm not a Kahuku alumni. Actually a Governor. My kids went to Kahuku and lived & worked there for 16 years. And no I don't think Kahuku kids would play at Mililani. The off year Kahuku is experiencing is because, new coaching,new OC mid season and a high amount to injuries to key players. Losing 5 starters on D is big, but it is what it is. Plus I don't think kids want to travel 1 and a half hour to Mililani. They might as well go to Campbell with DJ.
@Markeke: Oh! You faked me out. I thought you posted "My Red Raiders" in the past. Oh well, OK. But even in your case, while you're not a Kahuku alumnus, you live in Kahuku's school district. And, as you said, your kids attended Kahuku. But, would you have sent your kids to Campbell High? Isn't that almost as far from Kahuku's school district as is Mililani High? Isn't Waialua High the closest public school to Kahuku High? (Well, not that you would have sent your kids to Waialua. Why would you have, when Kahuku always has a better football team?)
Lol, what I'm saying is that Campbell has the Johnsons, which are true RR. Kahuku OC Bryron Beatty and Darren Johnson are 1 st cousins. But no, the only way Kahuku loses kids are to the ILH top 3.

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Re: unpaid D-I football

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Markeke wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:55 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:05 pm
Markeke wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:45 pm Lol, HS football fanatic, no I'm not a Kahuku alumni. Actually a Governor. My kids went to Kahuku and lived & worked there for 16 years. And no I don't think Kahuku kids would play at Mililani. The off year Kahuku is experiencing is because, new coaching,new OC mid season and a high amount to injuries to key players. Losing 5 starters on D is big, but it is what it is. Plus I don't think kids want to travel 1 and a half hour to Mililani. They might as well go to Campbell with DJ.
@Markeke: Oh! You faked me out. I thought you posted "My Red Raiders" in the past. Oh well, OK. But even in your case, while you're not a Kahuku alumnus, you live in Kahuku's school district. And, as you said, your kids attended Kahuku. But, would you have sent your kids to Campbell High? Isn't that almost as far from Kahuku's school district as is Mililani High? Isn't Waialua High the closest public school to Kahuku High? (Well, not that you would have sent your kids to Waialua. Why would you have, when Kahuku always has a better football team?)
Lol, what I'm saying is that Campbell has the Johnsons, which are true RR. Kahuku OC Bryron Beatty and Darren Johnson are 1 st cousins. But no, the only way Kahuku loses kids are to the ILH top 3.
@Markeke: Oh. And, I think you're right about Kahuku losing players to the ILH Top Three. I've been hearing that Punahou has been ripping-off players from Kahuku. Frankly, if Kahuku players have to jump ship, I'd rather see them transfer to Mililani.

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