2017-18 Basketball Thread

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Naz
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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:21 pm
@Naz: Yes, I agree that St Francis should be in D1. However, we want polls to be as accurate as possible. So, if St Francis is really the #2 team in the state, then I suggest they should be ranked as such, regardless of which schools they play. As I type this, it would appear that Maryknoll is threatening St Francis' #2 ranking: They are up over Punahou, 21-11, in the 2nd qrtr.
I don't see how as the regular season rolls on, media and coaches who get to vote in the polls can continue to reward any team, let alone a Div. 2 team, for a ranking they earned back in the pre-season. So in other words, come late January/early February as the OIA & ILH D1 seasons roll on, SFS should keep their #2 position based off of games played back in November/December? By keeping them #2 based off of pre-season wins, that is saying that regardless of what any D1 ILH or OIA team does during regular season, they will not overtake SFS. This would only justify to me why the SFS program would want to remain D2. All they have to do is have a stellar PRE-SEASON and not face any consequences by beating lower-caliber regular season teams like University Lab - which they did tonight by 30. Even college polls take into consideration a team's regular season strength of schedule for rankings. I personally would give more leverage to an ILH D1 team like St. Louis or Mid-Pac going 3-7 in regular season over an ILH D2 team going 10-0 in regular season. Even MIL and BIIF teams who are D1 and go undefeated in league play rarely get top 3 rankings because voters feel that the neighbor island competition isn't on par with ILH & OIA D1 schedules. There has to be some acknowledgement in the disparity of talent between Division 1 and 2. SFS will go untested from now until February and that's fine but their ranking should eventually reflect that significant drop-off in opposition.
Last edited by Naz on Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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Naz wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:21 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:21 pm
@Naz: Yes, I agree that St Francis should be in D1. However, we want polls to be as accurate as possible. So, if St Francis is really the #2 team in the state, then I suggest they should be ranked as such, regardless of which schools they play. As I type this, it would appear that Maryknoll is threatening St Francis' #2 ranking: They are up over Punahou, 21-11, in the 2nd qrtr.
I don't see how as the regular season rolls on, media and coaches who get to vote in the polls can continue to reward any team, let alone a Div. 2 team, for a ranking they earned back in the pre-season. So in other words, come late January/early February as the OIA & ILH D1 seasons roll on, SFS should keep their #2 position based off of games played back in November/December? By keeping them #2 based off of pre-season wins, that is saying that regardless of what any D1 ILH or OIA team does during regular season, they will not overtake SFS. This would only justify to me why the SFS program would want to remain D2. All they have to do is have a stellar PRE-SEASON and not face any consequences by beating lower-caliber regular season teams like University Lab - which they did tonight by 30. Even college polls take into consideration a team's regular season strength of schedule for rankings. I personally would give more leverage to an ILH D1 team like St. Louis or Mid-Pac going 3-7 in regular season over an ILH D2 team going 10-0 in regular season. Even MIL and BIIF teams who are D1 and go undefeated in league play rarely get top 3 rankings because voters feel that the neighbor island competition isn't on par with ILH & OIA D1 schedules. There has to be some acknowledgement in the disparity of talent between Division 1 and 2. SFS will go untested from now until February and that's fine but their ranking should eventually reflect that significant drop-off in opposition.
Mid-Pac just won AT Iolani tonight. This already hurts their chances to go to states. Gotta make Mid-Pac feel good, although this looks like Iolani's worst team in a long time.
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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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gopunahou wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:39 pm
Mid-Pac just won AT Iolani tonight. This already hurts their chances to go to states. Gotta make Mid-Pac feel good, although this looks like Iolani's worst team in a long time.
I think we can all agree that Iolani's success over the last 4 years was significantly attributed to having a 6'10" post clogging the middle and now that he is gone, I see 'Iolani as a Iower half ILH team. As we saw tonight, the playing field is back to normal now without the post-man they've relied on for 4 seasons. I loved seeing that score. I'm happy for the Mid-Pac team and their coaches. Mid-Pac to me is the anti-Saint Francis. SFS coach says that due to lack of height, they can't compete in the ILH D1 on a nightly basis. Pish posh because the same goes for Mid-Pac but I love the fact that they stick it out and keep grinding up in ILH D1 without making excuses. If Mid-Pac doesn't win any more ILH D1 games I'd still give them more clout over SFS going undefeated in the regular season.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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Naz wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 pm
gopunahou wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:39 pm
Mid-Pac just won AT Iolani tonight. This already hurts their chances to go to states. Gotta make Mid-Pac feel good, although this looks like Iolani's worst team in a long time.
I think we can all agree that Iolani's success over the last 4 years was significantly attributed to having a 6'10" post clogging the middle and now that he is gone, I see 'Iolani as a Iower half ILH team. As we saw tonight, the playing field is back to normal now without the post-man they've relied on for 4 seasons. I loved seeing that score. I'm happy for the Mid-Pac team and their coaches. Mid-Pac to me is the anti-Saint Francis. SFS coach says that due to lack of height, they can't compete in the ILH D1 on a nightly basis. Pish posh because the same goes for Mid-Pac but I love the fact that they stick it out and keep grinding up in ILH D1 without making excuses. If Mid-Pac doesn't win any more ILH D1 games I'd still give them more clout over SFS going undefeated in the regular season.
That excuse sounds familiar. Familiar to the one Iolani football gave when they kept insisting that they were small.
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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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Naz wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:21 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:21 pm
@Naz: Yes, I agree that St Francis should be in D1. However, we want polls to be as accurate as possible. So, if St Francis is really the #2 team in the state, then I suggest they should be ranked as such, regardless of which schools they play. As I type this, it would appear that Maryknoll is threatening St Francis' #2 ranking: They are up over Punahou, 21-11, in the 2nd qrtr.
I don't see how as the regular season rolls on, media and coaches who get to vote in the polls can continue to reward any team, let alone a Div. 2 team, for a ranking they earned back in the pre-season. So in other words, come late January/early February as the OIA & ILH D1 seasons roll on, SFS should keep their #2 position based off of games played back in November/December? By keeping them #2 based off of pre-season wins, that is saying that regardless of what any D1 ILH or OIA team does during regular season, they will not overtake SFS. This would only justify to me why the SFS program would want to remain D2. All they have to do is have a stellar PRE-SEASON and not face any consequences by beating lower-caliber regular season teams like University Lab - which they did tonight by 30. Even college polls take into consideration a team's regular season strength of schedule for rankings. I personally would give more leverage to an ILH D1 team like St. Louis or Mid-Pac going 3-7 in regular season over an ILH D2 team going 10-0 in regular season. Even MIL and BIIF teams who are D1 and go undefeated in league play rarely get top 3 rankings because voters feel that the neighbor island competition isn't on par with ILH & OIA D1 schedules. There has to be some acknowledgement in the disparity of talent between Division 1 and 2. SFS will go untested from now until February and that's fine but their ranking should eventually reflect that significant drop-off in opposition.
@Naz: Oh, yeah. The problematic part about St Francis being in D2 is that they'll be playing only D2 schools during the regular season, so it's hard to guage St Francis' actual strength vis-à-vis D1 schools. Still, a poll is always only an estimate. If people feel that St Francis has regressed at some point, then St Francis should go down in the polls. St Francis shouldn't have #2 locked-up only because they're not playing D1 schools anymore. That's why you can't go only by head-to-head match-ups; you have to estimate sometimes.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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gopunahou wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:39 pm
Naz wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:21 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:21 pm
@Naz: Yes, I agree that St Francis should be in D1. However, we want polls to be as accurate as possible. So, if St Francis is really the #2 team in the state, then I suggest they should be ranked as such, regardless of which schools they play. As I type this, it would appear that Maryknoll is threatening St Francis' #2 ranking: They are up over Punahou, 21-11, in the 2nd qrtr.
I don't see how as the regular season rolls on, media and coaches who get to vote in the polls can continue to reward any team, let alone a Div. 2 team, for a ranking they earned back in the pre-season. So in other words, come late January/early February as the OIA & ILH D1 seasons roll on, SFS should keep their #2 position based off of games played back in November/December? By keeping them #2 based off of pre-season wins, that is saying that regardless of what any D1 ILH or OIA team does during regular season, they will not overtake SFS. This would only justify to me why the SFS program would want to remain D2. All they have to do is have a stellar PRE-SEASON and not face any consequences by beating lower-caliber regular season teams like University Lab - which they did tonight by 30. Even college polls take into consideration a team's regular season strength of schedule for rankings. I personally would give more leverage to an ILH D1 team like St. Louis or Mid-Pac going 3-7 in regular season over an ILH D2 team going 10-0 in regular season. Even MIL and BIIF teams who are D1 and go undefeated in league play rarely get top 3 rankings because voters feel that the neighbor island competition isn't on par with ILH & OIA D1 schedules. There has to be some acknowledgement in the disparity of talent between Division 1 and 2. SFS will go untested from now until February and that's fine but their ranking should eventually reflect that significant drop-off in opposition.
Mid-Pac just won AT Iolani tonight. This already hurts their chances to go to states. Gotta make Mid-Pac feel good, although this looks like Iolani's worst team in a long time.
@gopunahou: Yeah. Iolani alumni must be bummed about their alma mater's prospects this season. As they say, sh*t happens.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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Naz wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 pm
gopunahou wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:39 pm
Mid-Pac just won AT Iolani tonight. This already hurts their chances to go to states. Gotta make Mid-Pac feel good, although this looks like Iolani's worst team in a long time.
I think we can all agree that Iolani's success over the last 4 years was significantly attributed to having a 6'10" post clogging the middle and now that he is gone, I see 'Iolani as a Iower half ILH team. As we saw tonight, the playing field is back to normal now without the post-man they've relied on for 4 seasons. I loved seeing that score. I'm happy for the Mid-Pac team and their coaches. Mid-Pac to me is the anti-Saint Francis. SFS coach says that due to lack of height, they can't compete in the ILH D1 on a nightly basis. Pish posh because the same goes for Mid-Pac but I love the fact that they stick it out and keep grinding up in ILH D1 without making excuses. If Mid-Pac doesn't win any more ILH D1 games I'd still give them more clout over SFS going undefeated in the regular season.
@Naz: I think that on the high-school level, a school doesn't necessarily require height to do well. If a school has players who are good ballhandlers, play good D, and are good perimeter shooters, it can beat a taller school. So I agree with you that lack of height is no excuse for avoiding D1. Therefore, St Francis doesn't have a leg to stand on in that regard.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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gopunahou wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:38 am
Naz wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 pm
gopunahou wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:39 pm
Mid-Pac just won AT Iolani tonight. This already hurts their chances to go to states. Gotta make Mid-Pac feel good, although this looks like Iolani's worst team in a long time.
I think we can all agree that Iolani's success over the last 4 years was significantly attributed to having a 6'10" post clogging the middle and now that he is gone, I see 'Iolani as a Iower half ILH team. As we saw tonight, the playing field is back to normal now without the post-man they've relied on for 4 seasons. I loved seeing that score. I'm happy for the Mid-Pac team and their coaches. Mid-Pac to me is the anti-Saint Francis. SFS coach says that due to lack of height, they can't compete in the ILH D1 on a nightly basis. Pish posh because the same goes for Mid-Pac but I love the fact that they stick it out and keep grinding up in ILH D1 without making excuses. If Mid-Pac doesn't win any more ILH D1 games I'd still give them more clout over SFS going undefeated in the regular season.
That excuse sounds familiar. Familiar to the one Iolani football gave when they kept insisting that they were small.
@gopunahou: St Francis can't use the "Iolani excuse" of lack of size, because in basketball, small players don't risk physical injury, as they do in football. I.e., in football, lack of size constitutes a health and safety issue, but not in basketball.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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I wonder if St. Francis benefits from speedy players. I’ve only seen small parts of them playing Punahou and they were a scrappy team.
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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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gopunahou wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:13 pm I wonder if St. Francis benefits from speedy players. I’ve only seen small parts of them playing Punahou and they were a scrappy team.
@gopunahou:
That's another part of it: Speed. As they say, speed kills. Sometimes those smaller, "mighty mite" players are real fast, and can sometimes outrun taller players. Especially when those taller players are kind of lanky and gangling.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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HS Football Fanatic wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:46 pm
gopunahou wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:13 pm I wonder if St. Francis benefits from speedy players. I’ve only seen small parts of them playing Punahou and they were a scrappy team.
@gopunahou:
That's another part of it: Speed. As they say, speed kills. Sometimes those smaller, "mighty mite" players are real fast, and can sometimes outrun taller players. Especially when those taller players are kind of lanky and gangling.
Having speedy players was the main reason behind Iolani's FB success. Speedy players can mask a lack of big bodies (and in the case of BB, tall bodies).
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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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SFS roster has three players listed at 6'3" and two players listed at 6'2". For Hawai'i prep bb, that is about on par with the majority of schools across the state. I'm not buying the SFS coach's lack of size argument.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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gopunahou wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:43 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:46 pm
gopunahou wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:13 pm I wonder if St. Francis benefits from speedy players. I’ve only seen small parts of them playing Punahou and they were a scrappy team.
@gopunahou:
That's another part of it: Speed. As they say, speed kills. Sometimes those smaller, "mighty mite" players are real fast, and can sometimes outrun taller players. Especially when those taller players are kind of lanky and gangling.
Having speedy players was the main reason behind Iolani's FB success. Speedy players can mask a lack of big bodies (and in the case of BB, tall bodies).
@gopunahou: Well, if we're talking about running backs, OK. Other than that, though, unless Iolani's opponent had really fat and slow linemen, I think speed gets you only so far in football. Better, of course, to be fast and big, like Kamehameha's D-line the past several years. As for basketball, shorter but faster players are useful, but a school needs good perimeter shooters, too. So, if a school has short but fast players with good perimeter shooting, I think that that school can be pretty successful in basketball.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

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Naz wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:55 pm SFS roster has three players listed at 6'3" and two players listed at 6'2". For Hawai'i prep bb, that is about on par with the majority of schools across the state. I'm not buying the SFS coach's lack of size argument.
@Naz: Well, I think you've blown St Francis' cover! They don't belong in D2.

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Re: 2017-18 Basketball Thread

Post by gopunahou »

HS Football Fanatic wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:53 pm
gopunahou wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:43 pm
HS Football Fanatic wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:46 pm

@gopunahou:
That's another part of it: Speed. As they say, speed kills. Sometimes those smaller, "mighty mite" players are real fast, and can sometimes outrun taller players. Especially when those taller players are kind of lanky and gangling.
Having speedy players was the main reason behind Iolani's FB success. Speedy players can mask a lack of big bodies (and in the case of BB, tall bodies).
@gopunahou: Well, if we're talking about running backs, OK. Other than that, though, unless Iolani's opponent had really fat and slow linemen, I think speed gets you only so far in football. Better, of course, to be fast and big, like Kamehameha's D-line the past several years. As for basketball, shorter but faster players are useful, but a school needs good perimeter shooters, too. So, if a school has short but fast players with good perimeter shooting, I think that that school can be pretty successful in basketball.
This past Iolani team was one of the few FB teams that lacked size. They've always had at least five or so big guys and between 1997-2001, had a bigger team than Punahou did. The Kiran Kepoo teams of the mid-2000s had the benefit of speed to stay with the Big Three.

On the subject of Iolani basketball, they've got a pivotal game against Kamehameha tonight (a pivotal game for both teams). KSK leads by 10 with one quarter remaining. If Iolani can't come back, they'll put themselves in a hole. A Kamehameha win will give them confidence heading into their game against us.
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