2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Give your high school or alumni a shout out! Talk about high school sports in this forum.
Chinkyeyes
Pom pom fluffer
Pom pom fluffer
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:55 am

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by Chinkyeyes »

twnoexcuses wrote:
Chinkyeyes wrote:What's your guys thoughts on the P4P?
Do you think it's correct?
1. Kato (Unbeatable in his championship weight class and one weight up)
2. Nakasone (Dominating and punishing. Never a doubt in his Championship match)
3. Terukina (Powerful and prepared)
4. Illabon (Only powerful and prepared could've beat him)
5. Corbett (Solid and smart)
6. Pascua (Powerful and athletic. Only Solid and smart could beat him)
7. Cooper (Most powerful pound for pound)
8. Villarmia (Best position/control wrestler after Kato)
9. Stevenson (Dominant in his weight)
10. Cabanban (113) (Two time means something).
Nakasone at #2? He's a 1x state champ what else has he done?

twnoexcuses
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 324
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by twnoexcuses »

Chinkyeyes wrote:
twnoexcuses wrote:
Chinkyeyes wrote:What's your guys thoughts on the P4P?
Do you think it's correct?
1. Kato (Unbeatable in his championship weight class and one weight up)
2. Nakasone (Dominating and punishing. Never a doubt in his Championship match)
3. Terukina (Powerful and prepared)
4. Illabon (Only powerful and prepared could've beat him)
5. Corbett (Solid and smart)
6. Pascua (Powerful and athletic. Only Solid and smart could beat him)
7. Cooper (Most powerful pound for pound)
8. Villarmia (Best position/control wrestler after Kato)
9. Stevenson (Dominant in his weight)
10. Cabanban (113) (Two time means something).
Nakasone at #2? He's a 1x state champ what else has he done?
You asked P4P. I think he dominated his weight class like no one else except Kato.

Chinkyeyes
Pom pom fluffer
Pom pom fluffer
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:55 am

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by Chinkyeyes »

twnoexcuses wrote:
Chinkyeyes wrote:
twnoexcuses wrote:
1. Kato (Unbeatable in his championship weight class and one weight up)
2. Nakasone (Dominating and punishing. Never a doubt in his Championship match)
3. Terukina (Powerful and prepared)
4. Illabon (Only powerful and prepared could've beat him)
5. Corbett (Solid and smart)
6. Pascua (Powerful and athletic. Only Solid and smart could beat him)
7. Cooper (Most powerful pound for pound)
8. Villarmia (Best position/control wrestler after Kato)
9. Stevenson (Dominant in his weight)
10. Cabanban (113) (Two time means something).
Nakasone at #2? He's a 1x state champ what else has he done?
You asked P4P. I think he dominated his weight class like no one else except Kato.
If that's the case then shouldn't Corbett be number 1? He dominated 2 weight classes?
That's where you guys go wrong it's off of credentials and who they beat. Who did nakasone beat? Nooooooboooody

twnoexcuses
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 324
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by twnoexcuses »

Chinkyeyes wrote:
twnoexcuses wrote:
Chinkyeyes wrote:
Nakasone at #2? He's a 1x state champ what else has he done?
You asked P4P. I think he dominated his weight class like no one else except Kato.
If that's the case then shouldn't Corbett be number 1? He dominated 2 weight classes?
That's where you guys go wrong it's off of credentials and who they beat. Who did nakasone beat? Nooooooboooody

I rethought and realized my mistake. Mine should have been 1. Kato, 2. Nakasone, 3. Terukina, 4. Corbett, 5. Illabon, 6. Pascua

I think 2-4 interchanged in any combo is not unreasonable. In my view, illabon and Pascua have to be lower than Nakasone/Terukina/Corbett.

As to Nakasone, he just totally dominated throughout States. Corbett had a close match that leaves him at #4 in my mind.

My top 4, all are pretty damned good.

Chinkyeyes
Pom pom fluffer
Pom pom fluffer
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:55 am

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by Chinkyeyes »

twnoexcuses wrote:
Chinkyeyes wrote:
twnoexcuses wrote:
You asked P4P. I think he dominated his weight class like no one else except Kato.
If that's the case then shouldn't Corbett be number 1? He dominated 2 weight classes?
That's where you guys go wrong it's off of credentials and who they beat. Who did nakasone beat? Nooooooboooody

I rethought and realized my mistake. Mine should have been 1. Kato, 2. Nakasone, 3. Terukina, 4. Corbett, 5. Illabon, 6. Pascua

I think 2-4 interchanged in any combo is not unreasonable. In my view, illabon and Pascua have to be lower than Nakasone/Terukina/Corbett.

As to Nakasone, he just totally dominated throughout States. Corbett had a close match that leaves him at #4 in my mind.

My top 4, all are pretty damned good.
I kinda a little tad bit see where your point is but, if Corbett stayed at 160 don't you think he woulda teched everyone? He dropped to 152 beat everyone inluding a state champ.. Close match or not. And even Terukina, did you look at how stacked 132 was? If you put terukina and Kato in front of Corbett then that's reasonable.. But nakasone.. Ahhhhh idk

talloola25
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:35 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by talloola25 »

Nice list, but when talking P4P should we take past years into more of an account than you would for lets say a weight class ranking?
I think the answer is yes. Look at the P4P guys and ask yourself who have they beaten/lost to? Using your list for example(twnoexcuses):
I don't know all of them well, but I will put who I know(I'm sure I missed some but this tells a pretty good tale). I will include state placings/good wins/bad losses(obv these are subjective but will include notables from previous years).

1. Kato(placements: 1, 1 --wins: Cabanban 2x placer, Pagurayan 3x placer, Keliinoi 2x placer -- losses: Estrella 2x placer, Kannys placer, Pagurayan 3x placer/as a sophomore)
2. Nakasone(placements: 4,5,4,1 -- wins: Cabanban 2x placer, Pagurayan 3x placer, Estrella 2x placer -- losses: Ilabon 3x placer/state champ, Ruiz 3x placer, Spain placer, Saribay placer, Raymond placer)
3. Terukina(placments: 3, 3, 1, 1 -- wins: Ikei 2x champ, Ilabon 3x placer/champ, Ruiz 3x placer -- losses: Balagso 4x placer, Ikei)
4. Corbett(placements: 5, 2, 1, 1 -- wins: Pascua 3x placer/champ, Salangdron 2x placer, Naosusuga 3x placer -- losses: Jaramillo 3x champ, Chan 2x placer)
5. Illabon(placements: 4, 1, 2 -- wins: Nakasone 4x placer/state champ, Ikei 2x champ, Saribay placer, Ruiz 3x placer, Tagami 2x placer, Keliinoi 2x placer, Gallarde 2x placer/champ -- losses: Wigzell 3x placer/champ, Terukina 3x placer/2x champ)
6. Pascua(placements: 2,1,2 -- wins: Stevenson 4x placer/champ, Naosusuga 3x placer, Alvarado 2x placer -- losses: Akeo 4x placer/2x champ, Corbett 4x placer/2x champ)

Based on this, I would say here's is my list using only those 6. I am looking not just at dominance this season(which they all showed) but also at good wins vs losses as well during their career:
1. Terukina - 3, 3, 1, 1(beaten multiple state champs(2), P4P guys, and only losses are to state champs/3x finalists)
2. Corbett - 5, 3, 1, 1(beaten state champ, P4P guys, and only losses are to multi placers(as a freshman)/multi state champs)
3. Pascua - 2, 1, 1(beaten state champ, P4P guys, and only losses are to state champs)
4. Ilabon - 4, 1, 2(beaten multiple state champs(3), P4P guys, and only losses are to state champs)
5. Kato - 1, 1(beaten state placers and losses to non-state champs)
6. Nakasone - 4, 5, 4, 1(beaten state placers and losses to state champs and non-state champs)

twnoexcuses
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 324
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by twnoexcuses »

talloola25 wrote:Nice list, but when talking P4P should we take past years into more of an account than you would for lets say a weight class ranking?
I think the answer is yes. Look at the P4P guys and ask yourself who have they beaten/lost to? Using your list for example(twnoexcuses):
I don't know all of them well, but I will put who I know(I'm sure I missed some but this tells a pretty good tale). I will include state placings/good wins/bad losses(obv these are subjective but will include notables from previous years).

1. Kato(placements: 1, 1 --wins: Cabanban 2x placer, Pagurayan 3x placer, Keliinoi 2x placer -- losses: Estrella 2x placer, Kannys placer, Pagurayan 3x placer/as a sophomore)
2. Nakasone(placements: 4,5,4,1 -- wins: Cabanban 2x placer, Pagurayan 3x placer, Estrella 2x placer -- losses: Ilabon 3x placer/state champ, Ruiz 3x placer, Spain placer, Saribay placer, Raymond placer)
3. Terukina(placments: 3, 3, 1, 1 -- wins: Ikei 2x champ, Ilabon 3x placer/champ, Ruiz 3x placer -- losses: Balagso 4x placer, Ikei)
4. Corbett(placements: 5, 2, 1, 1 -- wins: Pascua 3x placer/champ, Salangdron 2x placer, Naosusuga 3x placer -- losses: Jaramillo 3x champ, Chan 2x placer)
5. Illabon(placements: 4, 1, 2 -- wins: Nakasone 4x placer/state champ, Ikei 2x champ, Saribay placer, Ruiz 3x placer, Tagami 2x placer, Keliinoi 2x placer, Gallarde 2x placer/champ -- losses: Wigzell 3x placer/champ, Terukina 3x placer/2x champ)
6. Pascua(placements: 2,1,2 -- wins: Stevenson 4x placer/champ, Naosusuga 3x placer, Alvarado 2x placer -- losses: Akeo 4x placer/2x champ, Corbett 4x placer/2x champ)

Based on this, I would say here's is my list using only those 6. I am looking not just at dominance this season(which they all showed) but also at good wins vs losses as well during their career:
1. Terukina - 3, 3, 1, 1(beaten multiple state champs(2), P4P guys, and only losses are to state champs/3x finalists)
2. Corbett - 5, 3, 1, 1(beaten state champ, P4P guys, and only losses are to multi placers(as a freshman)/multi state champs)
3. Pascua - 2, 1, 1(beaten state champ, P4P guys, and only losses are to state champs)
4. Ilabon - 4, 1, 2(beaten multiple state champs(3), P4P guys, and only losses are to state champs)
5. Kato - 1, 1(beaten state placers and losses to non-state champs)
6. Nakasone - 4, 5, 4, 1(beaten state placers and losses to state champs and non-state champs)
I was trying to answer the P4P question based on what I saw, and trying to imagine what it would be like for, for instance, a Corbett to wrestle a Nakasone with equal weight and relative style considerations. That conjured an image of Nakasone's punishing ground game and leg riding at 152, or Corbett's style against the same thing at 120.

I'm not obsessed with Nakasone. But, I was pretty amazed by what he did to opponents (albeit, within his weight classes), and actually looked forward to watching his matches (while also expecting to cringe worriedly about the possibility of an opponent's shoulder popping out on his whizzers and halfs).
I don't disagree that past accomplishment is important, and merits a different order if you want to rank this year's wrestlers in terms of overall achievement.

P4P THIS season? The way I analyzed it in my mind is what would it look like if all wrestlers were the same weight, with the same relative strengths, and the same relative wrestling skills and styles. Under those circumstances, I think Nakasone would be an absolute problem for all others in my top 10 except for Kato, who managd to handle him well when they did wrestle, but close.

talloola25
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:35 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by talloola25 »

That's what I figured you were looking at, but just wanted to put something else out there. After rereading I also realized that Kato should probably be higher with a win over Terukina. I would probably put him 1st and bump everyone down one.

Using just this year and what you were looking at I would probably put them like this(remembering that some did wrestle P4P matches this season):
1. Kato 2. Terukina 3. Corbett 4. Ilabon 5. Pascua 6. Nakasone( he is amazing on top and was a lot of fun to watch this year, but I don't think it would have manifested itself in matches against these wrestlers). If he had wrestled a healthy Pagurayan(both shoulders already busted) in the semis I don't think it would have resulted the same way. I just think his neutral game wouldn't have held against the other wrestlers and it would have been a push on the mats. None of those guys had been turned or ridden out from top position in a long time.

twnoexcuses
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 324
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by twnoexcuses »

talloola25 wrote:That's what I figured you were looking at, but just wanted to put something else out there. After rereading I also realized that Kato should probably be higher with a win over Terukina. I would probably put him 1st and bump everyone down one.

Using just this year and what you were looking at I would probably put them like this(remembering that some did wrestle P4P matches this season):
1. Kato 2. Terukina 3. Corbett 4. Ilabon 5. Pascua 6. Nakasone( he is amazing on top and was a lot of fun to watch this year, but I don't think it would have manifested itself in matches against these wrestlers). If he had wrestled a healthy Pagurayan(both shoulders already busted) in the semis I don't think it would have resulted the same way. I just think his neutral game wouldn't have held against the other wrestlers and it would have been a push on the mats. None of those guys had been turned or ridden out from top position in a long time.

I think we've agreed to disagree. But I enjoy your analysis and it makes me question mine.

talloola25
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:35 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by talloola25 »

I was thinking the same thing. I appreciate different ways of looking at things. What I don't enjoy is that we probably have more action on the boards pre and post season than in season. I wish that could change. It is fun to talk about though. . . . With all that said, Pascua is #1 P4P going into next year. Probably Cabanban and Cooper after that though.

statefarmjake808
Pom pom fluffer
Pom pom fluffer
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 8:36 am

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by statefarmjake808 »

Chinkyeyes wrote:
twnoexcuses wrote:
Chinkyeyes wrote:What's your guys thoughts on the P4P?
Do you think it's correct?
1. Kato (Unbeatable in his championship weight class and one weight up)
2. Nakasone (Dominating and punishing. Never a doubt in his Championship match)
3. Terukina (Powerful and prepared)
4. Illabon (Only powerful and prepared could've beat him)
5. Corbett (Solid and smart)
6. Pascua (Powerful and athletic. Only Solid and smart could beat him)
7. Cooper (Most powerful pound for pound)
8. Villarmia (Best position/control wrestler after Kato)
9. Stevenson (Dominant in his weight)
10. Cabanban (113) (Two time means something).
Nakasone at #2? He's a 1x state champ what else has he done?
Well...he saw it that way becuz he is Iolani4life...

twnoexcuses
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 324
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by twnoexcuses »

statefarmjake808 wrote:
Chinkyeyes wrote:
twnoexcuses wrote:
1. Kato (Unbeatable in his championship weight class and one weight up)
2. Nakasone (Dominating and punishing. Never a doubt in his Championship match)
3. Terukina (Powerful and prepared)
4. Illabon (Only powerful and prepared could've beat him)
5. Corbett (Solid and smart)
6. Pascua (Powerful and athletic. Only Solid and smart could beat him)
7. Cooper (Most powerful pound for pound)
8. Villarmia (Best position/control wrestler after Kato)
9. Stevenson (Dominant in his weight)
10. Cabanban (113) (Two time means something).
Nakasone at #2? He's a 1x state champ what else has he done?
Well...he saw it that way becuz he is Iolani4life...
I give you great credit for keeping your sockpuppets straight.

Always have. It's a GIFT, I tell ya!

twnoexcuses
First guy off the bench
First guy off the bench
Posts: 324
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by twnoexcuses »

talloola25 wrote:I was thinking the same thing. I appreciate different ways of looking at things. What I don't enjoy is that we probably have more action on the boards pre and post season than in season. I wish that could change. It is fun to talk about though. . . . With all that said, Pascua is #1 P4P going into next year. Probably Cabanban and Cooper after that though.
I think it's hard for people to comment after the winter break because the leagues break into their respective seasons, and no one can be in 1 or 2 places, much less 3 or 4 places at the same time. So, it's tough to talk about how an OIA kid is progressing vis a vis an ILH or MIL kid or compare. My guess is that there's maybe one or two guys, and maybe some refs, who have a clear picture of what things look like or stack up during the regular season.

There used to be virtually zero video coverage by the news, and although there is some now, it's isolated and of little comparative value, and never any regular season OC16 like there is for other sports. No one posts video of recent matches online for fear of scouting.

_sportcourt
Pom pom fluffer
Pom pom fluffer
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:36 am

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by _sportcourt »

talloola25 wrote:That's what I figured you were looking at, but just wanted to put something else out there. After rereading I also realized that Kato should probably be higher with a win over Terukina. I would probably put him 1st and bump everyone down one.

Using just this year and what you were looking at I would probably put them like this(remembering that some did wrestle P4P matches this season):
1. Kato 2. Terukina 3. Corbett 4. Ilabon 5. Pascua 6. Nakasone( he is amazing on top and was a lot of fun to watch this year, but I don't think it would have manifested itself in matches against these wrestlers). If he had wrestled a healthy Pagurayan(both shoulders already busted) in the semis I don't think it would have resulted the same way. I just think his neutral game wouldn't have held against the other wrestlers and it would have been a push on the mats. None of those guys had been turned or ridden out from top position in a long time.
I'm with you on this. Nakasone bumps up he would get slaughtered by Kato, he bumps down I don't think he beats either finalist.

I'm ok with Kato & Terukina.

Switch
Pom pom fluffer
Pom pom fluffer
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:33 am

Re: 2016 Wrestling Speculation and Nonsense

Post by Switch »

_sportcourt wrote:
talloola25 wrote:That's what I figured you were looking at, but just wanted to put something else out there. After rereading I also realized that Kato should probably be higher with a win over Terukina. I would probably put him 1st and bump everyone down one.

Using just this year and what you were looking at I would probably put them like this(remembering that some did wrestle P4P matches this season):
1. Kato 2. Terukina 3. Corbett 4. Ilabon 5. Pascua 6. Nakasone( he is amazing on top and was a lot of fun to watch this year, but I don't think it would have manifested itself in matches against these wrestlers). If he had wrestled a healthy Pagurayan(both shoulders already busted) in the semis I don't think it would have resulted the same way. I just think his neutral game wouldn't have held against the other wrestlers and it would have been a push on the mats. None of those guys had been turned or ridden out from top position in a long time.
I'm with you on this. Nakasone bumps up he would get slaughtered by Kato, he bumps down I don't think he beats either finalist.

I'm ok with Kato & Terukina.
Re: Nakasone - he actually did wrestle Kato (mainland tourneys during the summer & during the preseason). And they were close, tough matches; definitely not the "slaughter" you predicted. Kato is one of the most well-rounded wrestlers in the state, and Nakasone is an absolute terror top/bottom. Always great matches and fun to see the contrast in styles. 

Does he belong in the top-5 p4p discussion? ABSOLUTELY. He wrestled Terukina tough every time they've matched up over the years. Close 9-8 loss to Shanden in last year's state semis. Wins against studs like Ruiz & Saribay. 

This year he decimated a tough 120-lbs weight bracket @ Officials (including pins against Cabanban & Estrella). Nakasone bumped up during the dual season and destroyed everyone except Kato at 126. And he rolled through his weight class at States. 

So why the doubt and disregard? How many kids make 99% of their opponents give away points to choose neutral? He's a 4x placer and a State Champ. Nakasone's a unique talent that should be celebrated. 

That being said, he's probably #5 in my top-5 p4p. ;)

Post Reply