In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

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gopunahou
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In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by gopunahou »

One guy alleged that some teams have scheduled easy opponents in the past to boost their ranking. I find that hard to believe, being that rankings might hold value to fans but not to teams. There've been countless times where coaches and players have said rankings don't matter. Is it of your opinion that they really believe that?
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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by saynotomercs »

That would be very dumb. Rankings don't mean anything with playoffs.

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by Eight-0-Eight »

Only way it could factor in would be in State Tournament seeding. Could maybe result in easier paths in the State Tourney, but particularly in football it doesn't make much difference in Division 1. In Division 2, with the success of outer island teams, such as Kauai and Lahainaluna, seeding has been more varied and important as only the final is in Aloha Stadium. In Division 1, the games at in the stadium from the semifinals on. But with the OIA and ILH basically penciled into the top two seeds for Division 1 for the past 5 years or so, and deservedly so, it puts less emphasis on non-league games. The newspaper rankings don't mean squat, and a lot of times don't reflect the seedings issued by the state association. As Pupule Paul says, the rankings have the nutritional value of whipped cream, or something along those lines. Not a lot of substance.

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by Uncle Joe »

I think teams on the upswing in their football program do track themselves to see how far they have come and one of those tools is the rankings. Teams that rarely visit the top 10 for instance can and have changed their demeanor when cracking their glass ceiling. All of a sudden they have something to defend besides home field or homecoming. So to a certain extent rankings do mean something to some people.
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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by kolohekeiki »

Eight-0-Eight wrote:Only way it could factor in would be in State Tournament seeding. Could maybe result in easier paths in the State Tourney, but particularly in football it doesn't make much difference in Division 1. In Division 2, with the success of outer island teams, such as Kauai and Lahainaluna, seeding has been more varied and important as only the final is in Aloha Stadium. In Division 1, the games at in the stadium from the semifinals on. But with the OIA and ILH basically penciled into the top two seeds for Division 1 for the past 5 years or so, and deservedly so, it puts less emphasis on non-league games. The newspaper rankings don't mean squat, and a lot of times don't reflect the seedings issued by the state association. As Pupule Paul says, the rankings have the nutritional value of whipped cream, or something along those lines. Not a lot of substance.
I really don't think rankings mean anything in state seedings, because for one, the top four ranked teams don't get the top four seeds, it's the league champions from each league regardless where they are ranked...

and secondly, the brackets are pretty much pre-set, meaning they already have their set guidelines, based on where the league champions are seeded, the 2nd seeded team from each league are in the opposite bracket of the league champion and so on and so forth...so I really don't think the rankings have anything to do with seedings and hold very little in their meaning...

if anything the only thing the rankings does is bring pride and confidence to the program to the athletes

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by gopunahou »

I ask because one of my comrades asserted this:
Pun Dad wrote:Last year Iolani beat weaker teams like Wailua and Kaiser, but lost all 3 games played against Top 10 teams
Millilani, St. Louis, and Punahou). But finished the year ranked 5th. So why risk their ranking. If they wanted a challenge they could play ILH div. 1.
Trust me, another year of Iolani winning five or more games will have posters questioning their presence in DII. I believe there've been people questioning it since Kiran Kepoo was their quarterback. How many more 8-9 win seasons will it take to convince that program that DII ain't the place for them? I think everyone should know the differences between Iolani dominating DII in the 2000s and St. Louis dominating all of high school football in the 1980s and 1990s.
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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by hawaiiBoy808 »

well either way this is the last year of D1 and D2 in the ILH. Next year theres going to be one division and first place team takes the D1 berth and second place takes the D2 berth.

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by saynotomercs »

I highly doubt that Kamehameha or Punahou would ever play in the D2 state tourney.

I'm sure it'll be the D2 designate with the best record (i.e. Mid Pacific in boy's soccer)

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by gopunahou »

We would've been good candidates to be a D2 team in the late '90s (Kamehameha would've been possible candidates in the early '90s, though their losing records then may have been due to underachieving), although it would've been more likely for Pac-Five and Damien to be the only D2 teams in the ILH then.
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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by towniedude »

hawaiiBoy808 wrote:well either way this is the last year of D1 and D2 in the ILH. Next year theres going to be one division and first place team takes the D1 berth and second place takes the D2 berth.
@gopunahou here is your chance to win another football title...although it will be in the DIVISION 2. Hooray! :hello1:

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by Eight-0-Eight »

kolohekeiki wrote:
Eight-0-Eight wrote:Only way it could factor in would be in State Tournament seeding. Could maybe result in easier paths in the State Tourney, but particularly in football it doesn't make much difference in Division 1. In Division 2, with the success of outer island teams, such as Kauai and Lahainaluna, seeding has been more varied and important as only the final is in Aloha Stadium. In Division 1, the games at in the stadium from the semifinals on. But with the OIA and ILH basically penciled into the top two seeds for Division 1 for the past 5 years or so, and deservedly so, it puts less emphasis on non-league games. The newspaper rankings don't mean squat, and a lot of times don't reflect the seedings issued by the state association. As Pupule Paul says, the rankings have the nutritional value of whipped cream, or something along those lines. Not a lot of substance.
I really don't think rankings mean anything in state seedings, because for one, the top four ranked teams don't get the top four seeds, it's the league champions from each league regardless where they are ranked...

and secondly, the brackets are pretty much pre-set, meaning they already have their set guidelines, based on where the league champions are seeded, the 2nd seeded team from each league are in the opposite bracket of the league champion and so on and so forth...so I really don't think the rankings have anything to do with seedings and hold very little in their meaning...

if anything the only thing the rankings does is bring pride and confidence to the program to the athletes
Precisely.

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by kolohekeiki »

gopunahou wrote:I ask because one of my comrades asserted this:
Pun Dad wrote:Last year Iolani beat weaker teams like Wailua and Kaiser, but lost all 3 games played against Top 10 teams
Millilani, St. Louis, and Punahou). But finished the year ranked 5th. So why risk their ranking. If they wanted a challenge they could play ILH div. 1.
Trust me, another year of Iolani winning five or more games will have posters questioning their presence in DII. I believe there've been people questioning it since Kiran Kepoo was their quarterback. How many more 8-9 win seasons will it take to convince that program that DII ain't the place for them? I think everyone should know the differences between Iolani dominating DII in the 2000s and St. Louis dominating all of high school football in the 1980s and 1990s.
what lots of people aren't understanding are the rules and guidelines for DI and DII and that's where the HHSAA needs to make a flat out rule across the board and not leave it up to each league to specify...that's why there is all this grumbling and complaining...because in terms of student body size Iolani is a legit DII school...

certain leagues have it where DI and DII are separated by school size and has nothing to do with how good you are...therefore you would never move up or you would never move down regardless...for example the MIL separates DI and DII by school size...Seabury Hall is the most dominant team in MIL boys volleyball history and they are in DII...they are always the top or second place team in the overall MIL standings, but they are never moving up because of their school size...

overall all this hating against Iolani just should stop if they should be in DI I'm sure the HHSAA would let them know...but until then they are where they belong...stop hating and just worry about your own school!

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by gopunahou »

kolohekeiki wrote:
gopunahou wrote:I ask because one of my comrades asserted this:
Pun Dad wrote:Last year Iolani beat weaker teams like Wailua and Kaiser, but lost all 3 games played against Top 10 teams
Millilani, St. Louis, and Punahou). But finished the year ranked 5th. So why risk their ranking. If they wanted a challenge they could play ILH div. 1.
Trust me, another year of Iolani winning five or more games will have posters questioning their presence in DII. I believe there've been people questioning it since Kiran Kepoo was their quarterback. How many more 8-9 win seasons will it take to convince that program that DII ain't the place for them? I think everyone should know the differences between Iolani dominating DII in the 2000s and St. Louis dominating all of high school football in the 1980s and 1990s.
what lots of people aren't understanding are the rules and guidelines for DI and DII and that's where the HHSAA needs to make a flat out rule across the board and not leave it up to each league to specify...that's why there is all this grumbling and complaining...because in terms of student body size Iolani is a legit DII school...

certain leagues have it where DI and DII are separated by school size and has nothing to do with how good you are...therefore you would never move up or you would never move down regardless...for example the MIL separates DI and DII by school size...Seabury Hall is the most dominant team in MIL boys volleyball history and they are in DII...they are always the top or second place team in the overall MIL standings, but they are never moving up because of their school size...

overall all this hating against Iolani just should stop if they should be in DI I'm sure the HHSAA would let them know...but until then they are where they belong...stop hating and just worry about your own school!
So are Castle and Kailua (and maybe Mililani, but they may just be a big school with a small team). But those teams probably don't have a choice to go down to DII and can't win championships because of it. And let me quote somebody, even if he did coach at a rival school and give us nightmares:

"Most areas that have classification classify them by enrollment," Kamehameha coach Kanani Souza said. "But Hawaii is unique in that you have some schools with small enrollments that are the better programs in the state. St. Louis and Kahuku have small enrollments, but they're perennial challengers every year for the state championship."

So would you place a school with 800 HS students but success rates and roster numbers that rival Kahuku's in a lower division?

Maybe Iolani would deserve to play DII if they stopped doing what they did to get the players they've got on the team. How does it benefit them to play D2 but still recruit as heavily as they do? It may be one of the reasons kids are choosing bigger schools instead of them.
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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by kolohekeiki »

gopunahou wrote:
kolohekeiki wrote:
what lots of people aren't understanding are the rules and guidelines for DI and DII and that's where the HHSAA needs to make a flat out rule across the board and not leave it up to each league to specify...that's why there is all this grumbling and complaining...because in terms of student body size Iolani is a legit DII school...

certain leagues have it where DI and DII are separated by school size and has nothing to do with how good you are...therefore you would never move up or you would never move down regardless...for example the MIL separates DI and DII by school size...Seabury Hall is the most dominant team in MIL boys volleyball history and they are in DII...they are always the top or second place team in the overall MIL standings, but they are never moving up because of their school size...

overall all this hating against Iolani just should stop if they should be in DI I'm sure the HHSAA would let them know...but until then they are where they belong...stop hating and just worry about your own school!
So are Castle and Kailua (and maybe Mililani, but they may just be a big school with a small team). But those teams probably don't have a choice to go down to DII and can't win championships because of it. And let me quote somebody, even if he did coach at a rival school and give us nightmares:

"Most areas that have classification classify them by enrollment," Kamehameha coach Kanani Souza said. "But Hawaii is unique in that you have some schools with small enrollments that are the better programs in the state. St. Louis and Kahuku have small enrollments, but they're perennial challengers every year for the state championship."

So would you place a school with 800 HS students but success rates and roster numbers that rival Kahuku's in a lower division?

Maybe Iolani would deserve to play DII if they stopped doing what they did to get the players they've got on the team. How does it benefit them to play D2 but still recruit as heavily as they do? It may be one of the reasons kids are choosing bigger schools instead of them.
Like how I said previously it's determined by leagues how they classify DI and DII and the OIA is NOT classified by school size, the OIA does their classification by the quality of play (I think they go every two years) determining how a school fares in their division they'll move up or down...

That's where the HHSAA is at fault for leaving it up to leagues...there is no way there will be a true DII state champion until there is a straight across the board standard that classifies what DI and what DII is...in most states DI and DII is based on enrollment of the student body...it has nothing to do with how much athletes a football team turns out, etc...

In your case and argument I have no comment on the recruiting aspect or whatever you are talking about because I really don't know...and really are you saying that Punahou does no sort of recruiting?

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Re: In HS football, do rankings really mean much to teams?

Post by gopunahou »

kolohekeiki wrote:
gopunahou wrote:
kolohekeiki wrote:
what lots of people aren't understanding are the rules and guidelines for DI and DII and that's where the HHSAA needs to make a flat out rule across the board and not leave it up to each league to specify...that's why there is all this grumbling and complaining...because in terms of student body size Iolani is a legit DII school...

certain leagues have it where DI and DII are separated by school size and has nothing to do with how good you are...therefore you would never move up or you would never move down regardless...for example the MIL separates DI and DII by school size...Seabury Hall is the most dominant team in MIL boys volleyball history and they are in DII...they are always the top or second place team in the overall MIL standings, but they are never moving up because of their school size...

overall all this hating against Iolani just should stop if they should be in DI I'm sure the HHSAA would let them know...but until then they are where they belong...stop hating and just worry about your own school!
So are Castle and Kailua (and maybe Mililani, but they may just be a big school with a small team). But those teams probably don't have a choice to go down to DII and can't win championships because of it. And let me quote somebody, even if he did coach at a rival school and give us nightmares:

"Most areas that have classification classify them by enrollment," Kamehameha coach Kanani Souza said. "But Hawaii is unique in that you have some schools with small enrollments that are the better programs in the state. St. Louis and Kahuku have small enrollments, but they're perennial challengers every year for the state championship."

So would you place a school with 800 HS students but success rates and roster numbers that rival Kahuku's in a lower division?

Maybe Iolani would deserve to play DII if they stopped doing what they did to get the players they've got on the team. How does it benefit them to play D2 but still recruit as heavily as they do? It may be one of the reasons kids are choosing bigger schools instead of them.
Like how I said previously it's determined by leagues how they classify DI and DII and the OIA is NOT classified by school size, the OIA does their classification by the quality of play (I think they go every two years) determining how a school fares in their division they'll move up or down...

That's where the HHSAA is at fault for leaving it up to leagues...there is no way there will be a true DII state champion until there is a straight across the board standard that classifies what DI and what DII is...in most states DI and DII is based on enrollment of the student body...it has nothing to do with how much athletes a football team turns out, etc...

In your case and argument I have no comment on the recruiting aspect or whatever you are talking about because I really don't know...and really are you saying that Punahou does no sort of recruiting?
There haven't been posts where I've said we don't recruit. I've also said that Iolani's recruiting wouldn't be a problem if they did it and still played D1. We recruit to stay competitive. I can't call what Iolani does trying to stay competitive.

The OIA may not go by enrollment to classify its teams because of the fact that Kahuku and Kailua were its best teams when Division II state tournaments came into being in 2003. They may have been the best of the league but were nowhere near the biggest in terms of enrollment.

I hope towniedude appreciates the can of bees he's opened.
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